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The Book of Mormon - Page 6

This is a response to several posts by several people and this is intended to insure that it is as brief as possible...

Most people on this thread are just upset that I am not willing to agree with them and willing to say that it is right to get up during Sacrament and give a talk or bear a testimony to the effect that reading the Book of Mormon 30 minutes daily is a criteria for our activity and because I am not willing to classify someone as inactive merely because they don't come to Church as frequently as I do.  I do not believe that a testimony is based on "outward manifestations of the inward self" because we are far more complicated then what appears on the outside.  What others see has nothing to do with who we are, a person smoking a cigarette has nothing to do with their amount of the spirituality or why they chose to smoke the cigarette.  This is just as true of people who chose not to come to Church; it may have absolutely nothing to do with their worthiness.

"Whoever feels bad, then there is something more going on...they may be experience guilt coming from other sources than the Church itself. Maybe themselves feel they're not 'worthy' and they want to blame the leaders for what they think is a 'reminder' of how they really feel inside."

This statement illustrates what I am talking about; stating that "whoever feels bad"¦may be experiencing guilt coming from other sources then the Church itself."  While this may well be; that there is some other source for their guilt it could also be people thinking and saying things like 'they must be feeling guilty from other sources if they feel bad, and they are feeling unworthy."  So if people will stop judging others unrighteously and allow for the possibility that it may be members of the Church who have caused them to feel the way they do because of how and what is being said.  I am all for the programs of the Church and for reading the Book of Mormon and for teaching the principles of the Church but I am against pontification, aggrandizement and am definitely against people placing the programs of the Church above the people.  Just how frequently does each of you visit people who are members of the Church outside of your Church responsibilities and the block meetings and other meetings established by the Church?  I believe that these programs are only necessary because people are not willing to do for others as they would want them to do for them.  Why does the Priesthood as a Quorum need to go to someone's house to repair their roof, or front porch?  Couldn't individual members show enough love and know enough about these members to know that they need their roof repaired and volunteer to do it for them along with a few others who likewise know of the problem.  Could it be that the reason it is brought to the Quorum by some of these people is so that they may gain glory and prestige in the eyes of their brothers and sisters.  Now let's look at Home Teaching, how many of you actually visit with these members more then once a month, or talk to them for any other purpose then to set up an appointment.  I can understand just how busy people are but the need for the Home Teaching program wouldn't exist if people became friends with the members and loved them for who they are.  I am all for the Home Teaching program because it is necessary to Shepard the flock because in all likelihood these people would never be visited if they didn't have Home Teachers.

I dislike the use of the term inactive when the use of it by people is to classify someone into a group when I know that they are a person with individual feelings and thoughts and may just be on a different spiritual level, which level may very well be more spiritual then the person who is doing the labeling.  Do I believe that we should attend church every Sunday; of course I do but that doesn't mean that gives me the right to say that someone who doesn't is inactive even if they don't come to Church on Sunday at all?  Would someone who reads the Book of Mormon an hour a day and never attends Church be inactive while someone who attends Church every Sunday and doesn't read the Book of Mormon is considered active because they are willing to deceive others?

I have never judged someone (I don't mean observing actions) unrighteously or implied in any way that they are not a good person because they don't live up to my standards.  I have not once on this thread made any such assumption or implied a person is a bad person or label them negatively because they don't live up to my standards which are really low.  

"No, I don't think I was a bit extreme. I was trying to point strongly that leaders do not make feel inferior or unworthy to other members if they don't read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes every day. That's what you stated in your past message."

Actually that is not what I stated in my post, and if you had taken the time to peruse my post you would know that I never once implied that the leaders of this Church attempted to make anyone feel inferior or unworthy because they did not read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes every day.  I was speaking of members of the Church doing so, President Hinckley would never attempt to make anyone feel unworthy but members of the Church tend to use his words to make others feel unworthy.  For example someone making comments to the effect that the reason we should increase our Home Teaching is so that we can have more sisters come to Church thus increasing the dating pool.

I apologize if you somehow feel that I am attempting to blame the leaders of the Church because I am not, I blame people who give ulterior motives to those who do not read the Book of Mormon or come to Church.  I have no doubt in my mind that there are many people in this Church who treat other people unfairly and I have been a witness to it.  The mere fact that I am intellectually inclined, has an introverted nature, and can be friends with just about anyone allows me to see how people are affected.  How some people don't want to go home from Church meetings because they go home knowing that they are leaving what little social life they have and that not one member of the Church will visit them until the next Church meeting.  I can see people just dejected as they leave and realize that these people are seeking something that many members of the Church aren't willing to give them and that is nothing more then being loved.  The next time you are at Church I ask you to notice people in sacrament and then notice rather they attend all the meetings and are one of the last ones to leave the building even though they have no reason for being there.  Then I urge you to befriend these members by going to their homes and visiting with them, calling them randomly throughout the week just to say hello.  I can assure you that you will lighten someone's load if you do that.  This is just as true of families, if a family tends to stay around Church, and to seek every opportunity to be at Church then they are probably in the same situation as those without families.

Mormon Book The

[Quote]"You talk about judgment a lot in your posts but have you noticed that you're doing the same thing towards those members who (in your opinion) makes other people feel 'inferior'. "[/Quote]

I was speaking of unrighteous judgment; that is when people take action A, and equate it with the status of the member of the Church or the person.  It is quite right to say that a person does not read the Book of Mormon 30 minutes every day, and entirely wrong to say that a person who does not read the Book of Mormon 30 minutes every day is a bad person or is inactive.  It is also just as right to say that a person does not come to church every Sunday and entirely wrong to say that a person who does not come to Church every Sunday is inactive.  I have never said that a member of the Church who judges another person based on certain actions is wrong, but that a person who judges another person based on his or her actions as being less-active, inactive, or unworthy or to say that they must have an outside reason other then the Church to feel the way they do is unrighteous.   To say these things would be to seek glory and honor and prestige above those persons, to make them feel as if they are less important and it is judgmental in the most negative sense of the word.  I think that what I have just written may be misinterpreted so I will take the time to clarify.  

First, there are two basic kinds of judgment, one based entirely on what someone observes (i.e., if you see someone smoking, you could say that they are a smoker) and the kind of judgment that is based on observation but also applies observations to make a judgment of the character of the person or to classify them into a group of people.  This kind of judgment if taken to the extreme can become racism, sexism, etc.  A person can observe that a person is a woman, and that she does not read the Book of Mormon but they cannot judge unrighteously that because she does not read the Book of Mormon it is because she is a woman.  This is just as true of those who do not attend Church, it is quite right to judge that a person doesn't attend Church and quite another matter to say because they don't attend Church that they are obviously not spiritual, or that they have 'feelings of guilt.'  Therefore I believe that a person who never comes to Church is not inactive rather he or she simply does not come to Church and his or her spirituality may be quite in accordance with the teachings of this Church on many different issues and thus cannot be classified as inactive based on the frequency of an activity.

Several comments were made with which I disagree and illustrate exactly what I am talking about"¦  I will attempt to respond to these briefly as possible so that this message will be as short as reasonable considering the scope of the response necessary.

[Quote]"One must actively work to keep a testimony.  If we don't regularly attend our meetings, pay our tithing, regularly, attend the Temple (as distance allows), and regularly read and ponder (study) the scriptures we will lose our testimony of their truthfulness."[/Quote]

While I agree with this statement in part I do not agree that we will necessarily loose our testimony of their truthfulness; it may well be that we do loose our testimony by a lack of reading the scriptures, attending the Temple, and paying tithing but this is not always the case.  Someone may have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and chose not to read it for whatever reason and still have a testimony of its truthfulness, the reason may well be that someone has offended them thus causing them not to read the Book of Mormon, yet the witness and testimony may still be hidden deep within that person because if someone truly has a testimony of the Book of Mormon based on Heavenly assurances they are less likely to loose that no matter how deeply it is buried in them waiting to come back out.  

This is similar to the early Apostles of this dispensation who had a sure witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and rejected the Church, were excommunicated and then were re-baptized members of the Church after many years.  Take the example of David Whitmer who never rejected his witness of the Book of Mormon and yet never attended Church from the day of his apostasy from the early Church.  So attending our meetings while good does not in anyway imply that not attending our meetings mean that we loose our testimony of the truthfulness of the others.  Someone may loose their testimony of attending Church and still retain their testimony of the Book of Mormon just like David Whitmer did.

[Quote]"I would personally not take it as personal as it seems you took it."[/Quote]

This statement all too clearly illustrates what I am speaking about.  Why would anyone believe that I have taken anything personally merely because I am defending other members of the Church who don't seem to live up to our standards?  I am not saying that these members are right for their actions or lack of action but I am saying that it is not our place to judge them unrighteously and thus it is construed that I have somehow been personally offended by what has been said, yes I do disagree with what many members of this Church say during talks, testimony bearing and during classes but it has not been personal rather it has been because I know how others feel and have empathy for them.  

Not being able to live up to all the standards of the Church may cause someone to leave it if statements are made that negatively reflect upon them especially if their testimony was not firmly rooted in fertile ground.  In fact, the statement above if made to someone who actually had taken it personally would only add more reason to take it personally.  If I had not read the Book or Mormon 30 minutes a day and felt that people were judging me because I didn't do so and such a statement was expressed in Church by a member I would only have more of a reason to be upset.  

[Quote]"I really do not see the relevance of posting your last month's reading, is that self-glorifying that you are saying you dislike? Edward, you are posting quotes twice and going on very lengthy, what is your issue really? No one is judging you. Lighten up."[/Quote]

I actually do see the relevance of posting my last month's reading because apparently someone has judged me to have taken it personally thus implying that I do not read the Book of Mormon 30 minutes every day.  I have neither taken it personally nor have I reason to and to imply that I have reason to warranted me making the post that I did and I believe it to be totally appropriate to respond as I did.  If someone accuses you of not reading the Book of Mormon 30 minutes every day and imply that you have taken something personally because of your lack of reading then you have every right to point out that you do read the Book of Mormon and study the gospel.  In fact I did not post my last month's reading but merely a few of the Books I read, nor did I post how often I read the Book of Mormon but merely gave a general idea of the scope of my reading.  This is not self-glorifying rather it is defending ones integrity.  If a member of the Church were to get up in sacrament and say that you did not read the Book of Mormon and are offended because you don't read it then you would have every right to respond by pointing out that you do read the Book of Mormon and that you do more then that as well and this wouldn't be classed as self-glorification.   Self-glorification would be to get up in sacrament and to list the books I have read in the last month for no other reason then to list them.  Also why would anyone tell me to lighten up or say that no one is judging me if they really weren't?  I don't mind being judged if it is righteous judgment which in this post it may well be but please don't say that no one has judged me because the above statement is a judgment and rather it is righteous or unrighteous is beside the point.
A statement with which I am in agreement with"¦.

[Quote]"So, I do agree that it isn't important to spend a particular amount of time each day reading from the BOM or any other scripture.  However, I do believe it is important to spend some amount of time each day reading from them."[/Quote]

This is exactly the point that I am attempting to make and the reasons I believe that the counsels of President Benson have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of time spent on reading the Book of Mormon but more about the reason we read the Book of Mormon.  I really don't care how frequently someone reads the Book of Mormon so long as they love it and have a testimony of it.

The Book of Mormon Studies Doctrine Mormon

Edward, you raised a lot of interesting points, but much of it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  Specifically reading the Book of Mormon.  I would love to discuss the other topics with you, however, that can't be done on this thread or we will get in trouble (rightfully so) with the Admin.  Maybe you might like to start a new thread or a few threads to discuss the other topics which you raised in your post(s).

[quote]
Would someone who reads the Book of Mormon an hour a day and never attends Church be inactive while someone who attends Church every Sunday and doesn't read the Book of Mormon is considered active because they are willing to deceive others?[/quote]

If someone doesn't attend Church they are inactive or less active.  That is true by the very meaning of the word "active."  They are inactive or less active in their Church attendance.  How this may or may not affect their spirituality or testimony is another thing (maybe a new thread could be started to discuss this if you are of a mind to do so).  Even if they read the Book of Mormon regularly, if they don't go to Church they are not active in Church attendance.  This is what members mean (at least in my experience) by the term inactive or less active.

Page 6 Mormon Book The

Off topic replies have been moved to [link=https://www.bordeglobal.com/cgi-bin2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=oil;action=display;num=1068498598]This Thread[/link] by JB@Trinidad.

Mormon Book The

I have only read the Book of Mormon through once, four years ago when we were studying it in Gospel Doctrine.  We all will be studying it in 2004 by the way.  

In RS one of the sisters made up a booklet "Read The Book Of Mormon In 40 Days. . ."  Here is Day 1
Date: _______________________
Scripture Study: 1 Nephi Chapters 1-10   Scriptures to Mark & Ponder: 1 Nephi 2:16, 19-20
Scripture thought for the day:  "Yea, behold, I will tel you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." D & C 8:2

Thought For The Day:  "But after all, it is not the book's dramatic crisis, it's history, it's narratives that are so important, but it's power to transform men into Christ-like beings worthy of exaltation. My beloved friends, I give to you the Book of Mormon. May you read it prayerfully, study it carefully, and recieve for yourselves the testimony of it's divinity."  (Spencer W. Kimball)
Scriptures that you read which touch your heart:  (lines for you to write that cover half the page.

If you can help me I think I might be able to send this via email.  I could put it into Word, then send it.  

Even with this wonderful booklet I haven't progressed past Day 1.  How awful can I get?!  Time to get off the internet and curl up in a chair and read.  

The Book of Mormon

Hi Agene -- that booklet sounds very thorough!  I'm really enjoying just reading it right now, and I'm using an Institute manual for questions I have or expansion on some of the topics.

I'm now averaging 14 pages per day  and am more than halfway through after 20 days.  

I hear that!  And it really doesn't take too much time to read for 30 minutes a day.  I break it up into 15 minutes in the morning and evening.

It's awesome!

Roz

Edited: FarSeer on 5th Dec, 2003 - 3:56am

The Book Mormon - Page 6

I think that everyone involved here will find this very interesting.

https://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The entire 1st edition of the Book of Mormon is reproduced on this website.

NightHawk

The Book Mormon Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 6

Wow! Great find, Nighthawk. I wonder who runs the website?? How do we know if it's authentic?

Roz