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Journal of Discourses - Page 8

I never, ever referred to "the Prophet" in any of this.  I always referred to "the Church."  That is because there are frequent "definitions" of doctrine, principles, and policies that do not come from the Prophet, nor from any recognizable source, just "the Church."

[quote]my opinion would be that having the Brethren tell us some 'specific' about a particular issue gives something to go to the Lord with it.[/quote]

But, if the Brethren tell us something specific about a particular issue, doesn't that instantly stifle ALL discussion?  If I then report to you that I have gone to the Lord about that particular issue, and the answer that I have gotten is contrary to what "the Brethren" have stated, then am I not labelled "apostate"?

Heck, if I simply report what I have learned about what Heber C. Kimball taught about prayer, which is against current "policy" then I am labelled apostate, and could be subject to excommunication.

NightHawk

Discourses Journal

[quote]I never, ever referred to "the Prophet" in any of this.  I always referred to "the Church."[/quote]
Anything the Church does officially is answerable by the Prophet.

[quote] But, if the Brethren tell us something specific about a particular issue, doesn't that instantly stifle ALL discussion?[/quote]
Exactly. We can build upon what they have said, so long as we do just that... build upon it and not some how try to destroy it. It is in the destruction part that 'we' or 'they' are accused of apostasy. Again, the words... 'In my opinion' are so important.

[quote] Heck, if I simply report what I have learned about what Heber C. Kimball taught about prayer, which is against current "policy" then I am labelled apostate, and could be subject to excommunication.[/quote]
Nothing wrong in bringing it up, it just depends on certain factors...
1. Who you are telling it to
2. Who is listening
3. How you say it

and the most important one of all...

4. Is this personal revelation? If so should I be sharin something personal to me with others?

For #4 i can tell you that the Lord trusts us with certain 'secrets', we then have the choice of keeping it 'secret'. If we don't then should He give us another?

Journal of Discourses Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]It is in the destruction part that 'we' or 'they' are accused of apostasy. Again, the words... 'In my opinion' are so important.[/quote]

I can't agree here.  If I offer "my opinion" (purely an example, not necessarily my opinion) that the Manifesto, and all subsequent actions concerning it are purely an attempt to pacify Babylon, then I am subject to censure.  It is not an attempt to destroy anything.  Just an attempt to voice a deeply held belief.  I have seen this exact attempt by other people.  Not that they are practicing plural marriage, or even condoning it.  Just that they believe it was inspired more by Babylon than Zion.  And they face severe persecution.

How can someone build upon a statement by the Prophet or an Apostle that they find diametrically opposed to their understanding of scripture and the recorded teachings of earlier Prophets and Apostles?  Again, this is an example.  I am not smart enough to have come to any conclusions about much of anything.  I just have questions that rarely get answered.

[quote]4. Is this personal revelation? If so should I be sharin something personal to me with others?  

For #4 i can tell you that the Lord trusts us with certain 'secrets', we then have the choice of keeping it 'secret'. If we don't then should He give us another?[/quote]

Now this, I can completely agree with.  Sometimes He gives us "secrets", and if we spread them, we will not get more.  But sometimes He tells people to speak of those secrets, especially when they weren't secret at one time.  Sometimes, He tells us to share something personal with others.

I can definitely relate stories of people who have shared an insight or belief that they shouldn't have.  Arrogance and desire for the approval of others are powerful temptations.  I think that these attitudes are where many of the polygamist groups come from.  I think that many "apostates" are created from the same place.

At the same time, there are a lot of people out there who are aching for support, because they have learned something wonderful, and need to discuss it, just to help them think it through and understand it.  To bring this discussion back around to the original topic, many of them have found these nuggets within the JoD.  I find that discussion of something I have learned frequently helps me to ponder it and learn from it.  In fact, I have done much of that within this forum, as I take positions that are somewhat controversial and try to understand various facets of the subject.

I appreciate the patience most of you have shown me.  Perhaps I am on the road to apostasy, but really, most of the time I am just trying to explore these ideas, so I take a type of "devil's advocate" approach to them.

I am not even sure what I really think on some of these subjects.  There are severe contradictions between what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early leaders taught on some subjects, and what "the Church" teaches today.

Once again, thanks for the place to explore these.

NightHawk

Page 8 Discourses Journal

[quote] I can't agree here.  If I offer "my opinion" (purely an example, not necessarily my opinion) that the Manifesto, and all subsequent actions concerning it are purely an attempt to pacify Babylon, then I am subject to censure.[/quote]
Please re-read carefully what I said... " Nothing wrong in bringing it up, it just depends on certain factors... "

[quote] I appreciate the patience most of you have shown me.  Perhaps I am on the road to apostasy, but really, most of the time I am just trying to explore these ideas, so I take a type of "devil's advocate" approach to them. [/quote]
Yes, you do take an 'original' approach, that is why I take the time to answer I hope you are not on the road to apostasy, I would like to think you are just merely 'out at sea' but close to the harbor.

I would like you to post a new thread about the things you have questions about for realistic discussion. Maybe we can help you discover an answer while getting one for ourselves.
[offtopic]Nice new look, decided not to be an Orge? [/offtopic]

Discourses Journal

[quote]I would like you to post a new thread about the things you have questions about for realistic discussion. Maybe we can help you discover an answer while getting one for ourselves.[/quote]

That would be fine.  My interests and areas of study are so broad that I find it very difficult to hold to a narrow topic.

[offtopic]I like Linux.  I like Ogres.  I like fantasy.  I like lots of things.  If you had Shrek or MooShoo, I would probably choose one of them [/offtopic]

Journal of Discourses

Okay so after all these threads and posts we can sum up a few things thus far...

1. The JofD has parts that are Gospel truths and others that are just opinions.
2. We would need to use books that are authoritative to figure out the parts that are truth, this in conjunction with prayer, fasting and research of course.
3. There are truths yet to be discovered and the main way is through personal research and study

Let us continue....

[offtopic]Ah, I think you can request that through the forum bank. Try the link above.[/offtopic]

Journal Discourses - Page 8

[quote] 1. The JofD has parts that are Gospel truths and others that are just opinions.[/quote]

Most of the talks in the Journal of Discouses were given in General Conference (yes some were in firesides too) but not in the living room of the Prophet, so how can we be sure that what they said in the Journal of Discourses is 'opinion' when they were talking to the entire congregation of Saints?

[offtopic] Nighthawlk, I would like to discuss the topic of Excommunication for Apostasy in this thread: https://www.bordeglobal.com/cgi-bin2/yabb/Y...327209;start=24
I will post something now so if anybody is interested you all can reply to it. [/offtopic]

Journal Discourses Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 8

[quote]Most of the talks in the Journal of Discouses were given in General Conference (yes some were in firesides too) but not in the living room of the Prophet, so how can we be sure that what they said in the Journal of Discourses is 'opinion' when they were talking to the entire congregation of Saints?
[/quote]

I think it comes back to, unless and until the Church takes an official position, we can only be sure of the stuff that is quoted in official Church instruction manuals or other official Church books.  This is especially true because we have already learned in this thread that not all of the General Conference talks were verfied to be correct before publication in later years after the death of the first publisher (forget his name, but it is quoted in another posting of this thread.).

[quote]I just looked at my copy of 'Jesus the Christ' by Talmage and it does not have the name of the Church on it. Yet is was recommended reading in official papers of the Church for missionaries. In fact, I read this on my mission. Then there must be an addition to what you mentioned?[/quote]

Keep in mind that because a book is recommended for reading on a mission doesn't mean it is an official Church publication, it must have the stamp of the Church on the inside cover or title page.  If it says "Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah"  It is an official Church publication.  Without this, it might be a great book, full of wisdom, recommended reading on a mission, but it is not an official Church publication.  Look inside your "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church John Taylor" Relief Society/Priesthood manual for an example.

Anything else, regardless of the author, might contain true doctrine, but could also be mingled with the author's opinion on the subject.  This opinion can have been formed based upon that person's life experiences and not necessarily a gospel truth.  When the Church actually publishes the book, someone in authority ensures that it only contains gospel truths.

When we read a book that is well recommended within the Church, but not actually published by the Church, if we come across something in it contrary to what we know to be Church doctrine, we have no conflict (IMO), the Church doctrine is what it is and the other must be opinion.  Maybe the author had some insight into a subject more than the world was ready to live, I don't know, but until it is Church doctrine, I personally don't see a need to worry too much about it.  It might be fun to speculate, but I have enough trouble worrying about the already revealed Church doctrine to lose too much sleep about it although, I certainly enjoy discussing that stuff hear for personal consideration and enlightment. ;D