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Journal of Discourses - Page 11

I consider myself: I'm Super Active
Years a Member: 2

I was able to read where you received your information the first time I read your message and I still disagreed with you and your intrepretation of the "General Handbook of Instruction" and if the General Handbook of Instruction does imply what you are stating then I disagree with it too.

I again must state that I am being entirely subjective and that my position on this issue comes from my unwillingness to accept every book put out by the Church as a 'standard for the doctrines of the Church.'

I will not do so, nor am I inclined to place the General Handbook of Instructions above my understanding of the Scriptures.  If my understanding of the General Handbook of Instruction gives me one impression and the scriptures another.  I say this: Bye, Bye General Handbook of Instruction because I stand with the "Standard Works" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not some procedural manual, book or other publication.  I would just as easily ignore computer specifications if they disagreed with my understanding of the Scriptures.

I have one simple question, "Did you raise your hand during General Conference, Stake Conference, or Ward Conference sustaining the procedural manual known as the "General Handbook of Instruction" because if you did not then how can you imply that I should somehow give credence to any 'official publication' of the Church as a source of doctrine.  I have no doubt that the Handbook can be a good source for procedural methods but it is not nor shall it ever be a 'standard' by which I judge the doctrines and principles of this Church, no matter who published it or under what guise it was published.  No matter who the author is or why he chose to write it.  The Priesthood Manual is a teaching tool which was reviewed by the "Correlation Executive Committee and the Correlation Department and therefore I can probably assume with a fair amount of accuracy that it represents the understanding of those who wrote it or approved it but having read the history of the Church and knowing the foilables of man I know that even the General Authorities understanding is limited and even more so is there Department Heads, Secretaries, and Researchers.  President Hinckley didn't one day sit down in his office and receive by revelation word for word the Priesthood Manual for this year, he may have been inspired to approve it but that is entirely different because once we understand that the Lord allows us to have some error for our own good and doesn't take away our free agency there must be errors found in these works.  Let's not forget that Joseph Smith was an uneducated youth and yet Heavenly Father working with his limitations impressed upon him the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph translated the Book of Mormon by being a seer.

I have read this thread in its entirety and while I have not yet taken the time to peruse each message and to analyze it objectively I have drawn my own conclusion from what I have read on this board and elsewhere.  I also write lengthy and well thought out responses which may be considered to be novels but the reason I do so is for clarification.  I do not believe that numerous short messages would accomplish the same thing.  I could easily break this post into numerous messages but it would only clutter up the thread and cause undue confusion.

You state that I would be right in teaching from the approved Sunday School Manual rather then from the words of another General Authority who I may consider to be my favorite.  I say that this is wrong, first because the Sunday School Manual is not written by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators but by research assistants, clerks, secreteries and various other staff and they do so under the direction of a Department Head who is under a committee of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles but the Quorum itself doesn't necessarily review in detail as a quorum of the whole the manual but instead it is approved upon the recommendation of 3 Apostles and the Department responsible.  I would be more inclined to teach from the teachings of the current President of the Church then from anything else including manual for which I know you may yourself be the one who wrote it.

Discourses Journal

:spock: Edward, you are starting to worry me now for two reasons...

[quote]and if the General Handbook of Instruction does imply what you are stating then I disagree with it too. [/quote]
If you disagree with the procedure the Church has outlined then you are heading down the road of apostasy

[quote]"Did you raise your hand during General Conference, Stake Conference, or Ward Conference sustaining the procedural manual known as the "General Handbook of Instruction" because if you did not then how can you imply that I should somehow give credence to any 'official publication' of the Church as a source of doctrine.[/quote]
You grossly miss the point of doctrine and procedure. I have never said that the GHI was a book of Doctrine. however, I do not wish to get into that since you mind seems closed on this, I do want to address your mention of sustaining. When you sustain the Prophet then you also agree to sustain what he does in the capacity as President and one of the things he does is issue books like the GHI and other Church materials. So you would be mistaken to think that you have to 'sustain' every manual that come out from the Church.
[offtopic]:spock: You writing is very similar to someone I know. I am sure I have seen you on the net before, maybe even here.[/offtopic]

Journal of Discourses Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]You state that I would be right in teaching from the approved Sunday School Manual rather then from the words of another General Authority who I may consider to be my favorite.  I say that this is wrong,[/quote]

Sorry, but in this, I believe, you are wrong.  When we accept a calling to teach in the Church, we are agreeing to teach what they want taught, not what we want to teach.  Teachers are supposed to teach from the Church approved manuals, period.  I should be able to attend Sunday School or RS/PH meetings anywhere in the world and know that I am being taught a lesson approved by my Church leaders to help me grow in the gospel as taught by this Church not as taught by whatever teacher might be filling the role.

While you might stick strictly to true gospel principals, someone else may not.  Many members have gospel by "whomever" beliefs that are fine to have, share and discuss, but not to held out as true teachings of the Church.  Sunday school and RS/PH are times for me to be enlightened and informed of true Church teachings and principals.  For other enlightening and thought provoking discussion, I can come to this forum. :

Page 11 Discourses Journal

Edward, I assume by reading some of your posts that maybe you're not very familiar how the Church works as a body (Yes, I'm talking about procedures and policies) then I see that you make a lot of assumptions about people and leaders...I don't know if you have personally experience some of the things you mentioned in your post...if you did, I'm sorry. I hope you be able to continue working hard with faith and doing what Heavenly Father wants you to do.
We have a Church where people tries to strive to do the best they can, yes, some fall in the way, but we have a Prophet who tries the best he can to guide us and teach us in this time of trial in the world. Yes, he also authorizes the General Handbook, if you don't agree with him, then you don't agree with the Prophet, and if you don't agree with the Prophet, you don't agree with God since you sustained the Prophet as such....goes hand to hand...
You're wrong to say that the publications of the Church are not carefully analyzed, each publication of the Church is carefully read and aproved by the First Presidency, even the Ensign Magazine!. Don't think that just because you're not learning from a book written by the Prophet, you're not getting enough or correct principles...you are. You may want to talk with the Bishop about it and maybe he can give you more insights about this since he knows you and knows your circumnstances. You was just baptized two years ago, there is a long road ahead of you still and I hope you can be open enough to listen to the suggestions and opinions that the members are given you here. Peace.

Discourses Journal

In line with what is being said above...

"Concerning the sustaining of officers, President John Taylor once said:

"'We hold up our right hand when voting in token before God that we will
sustain those for whom we vote; and if we cannot feel to sustain them we
ought not to hold up our hands, because to do this, would be to act the
part of hypocrites. . . . For when we lift up our hands in this way, it is
in token to God that we are sincere in what we do, and that we will sustain
the parties we vote for. . . . If we agree to do a thing and do not do it,
we become covenant breakers and violators of our obligations, which are,
perhaps, as solemn and binding as anything we can enter into' (in Journal
of Discourses, 21:207).

"This principle applies to every priesthood quorum and every other
organization of the Church where officers are sustained by the membership."

(Gordon B. Hinckley, "God Is at the Helm," Ensign, May 1994, 53)

Therefore when we sustain the Prophet we 'vote'. Just like the President of a country. We vote for him, but it does not mean we have to now 'vote' for all that he decides to do. Lastly, this topic is about the Journal of Discourses and not if church handbooks are doctrinal or not. Edward, please center your next post on the topic at hand. If you have a question about something that is bother you then start a new thread.

Journal of Discourses

[Quote]Edward, I assume by reading some of your posts that maybe you're not very familiar how the Church works as a body (Yes, I'm talking about procedures and policies) then I see that you make a lot of assumptions about people and leaders...I don't know if you have personally experience some of the things you mentioned in your post...if you did, I'm sorry. I hope you be able to continue working hard with faith and doing what Heavenly Father wants you to do. [/Quote]

Actually I am of the exact opposite opinion; I believe that you do not understand and are not familiar with how the Church functions as a body because if you were then you would know that I have been speaking in accordance with the teachings of this Church regarding what constitutes policy and what constitutes doctrine.  Let me assist you in understanding the operations of the Church.

First, the Church is headed by a Prophet, Seer and Revelator who is the President of the Church.  There are three Presiding Quorums of the Church.  These being the Quorum of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve and the Quorum of the Seventy.

[Quote] You may want to talk with the Bishop about it and maybe he can give you more insights about this since he knows you and knows your circumnstances. You was just baptized two years ago, there is a long road ahead of you still and I hope you can be open enough to listen to the suggestions and opinions that the members are given you here. Peace. [/Quote]

 I have no reason to speak to my Bishop and your suggestion is nothing more then an expression of your arrogance.   I suggest that you stop being dogmatic and speak to your Bishop and if that doesn't work then you should realize that the Church is a lot more complicated then Just 15 men, and that they do not review every single piece of correspondence, in fact they themselves have members of the Correlation Department review "DOCUMENTS WRITTEN BY THEM" to make sure that they are doctrinally correct.

Second, the Presiding Bishopric acting under the direction of the First Presidency and deals with the temporal affairs of the Church, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles deal with the spiritual affairs of the Church among other things.

Third, the Quorum of the First Presidency, the Presiding Bishopric, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles act as Committee on the Dispensation of Tithes.

Fourth, the Quorum of the Twelve is divided into four Committees, these being the Priesthood Executive Council, the Correlation Executive Council, Missionary Executive Council, and the Temple and Family History Executive Council.

Fifth, it wasn't until the 1970's and 1980's that these Councils were created under the direction of then Apostle Harold B. Lee in an effort to establish correlation as the operating procedure of the Church, before that date individual auxillaries were responsible for their own training and operations; they printed their own lesson and training manuels, printed their own magazines, etc.

Sixth, the Correlation Department is directed by and acts under the authority of the Correlation Executive Council.  There are three primary divisions of this department dealing primarily with 'review', 'planning' and 'evalution'

I could go into much more detail but it would be an unnecessary use of time since you either already know this or you don't and it is all to apparent to me that you do not because you don't under the basic premise upon which this Church operates because if you did then you would know that there is a distinction between doctrine and policy, and the policies of the Church are established and then followed by Department Heads, Chair-persons and staff.  Failure to understand that these do not represent the 'official position of the Church' but only represent the 'official position of those who serve in the Church Administration' leads one to ultimately believe that all that is spoken by a General Authority represents the position of the Church, it does not.  The Church is made up of over 11 million Saints and 'common consent' is a principle and doctrine of this Church and rather this apostle or that apostle has instituted a policy for the Church does not mean that it is binding on the members.

I would urge you to call Salt Lake and ask them if the policies of the Church are binding on the members and they will respond that they are not.

Please teach me if you are so informed on how the Church operates because as far as I can see,; you know very little about the mechanics of the Church and that is probably because you have been a member for a very long time and have become complacent.

Also I again attempt to bring this subject back to the Journal of Discourse which is really becoming difficult considering that many of you are ill-informed regarding how the Church operates and what constitutes 'official doctrine' and 'official policy' but I think enough time has been spent on trying to educate you regarding these things and I leave you to study for yourself more about the matter.

The Journal of Discourses cannot be construed to be 'official doctrine' because it has not been sustained by the members of the Church, nor can it be considered 'official policy' because it has absolutely nothing to do with policy, and if it did then the only ones bound by it would be the General Authorities and Staff of the Church, and that could change from day to day.  Everything that comes from Salt Lake regarding policy is binding on the leadership and staff of the Church and deals primarily with the administration of the Church.  Take for example the recent change regarding missionary farewells.  This is a policy and is binding on the Bishop but it is not binding on the members nor is it doctrine.  This is just as true of the Doctrine and Covenants, until the members sustain it then it cannot represent the doctrine of the Church, and much of what is said in the Journal of Discourses may be used as policy but not as doctrine.

"Yes, he also authorizes the General Handbook, if you don't agree with him, then you don't agree with the Prophet, and if you don't agree with the Prophet, you don't agree with God since you sustained the Prophet as such....goes hand to hand..."  He authorized it for the administration and leaders of the Church, he doesn't have the authority scripturally to make it binding on the members of the Church or to make it doctrinally applicable to their lives.  He authorizes a lot of stuff, and that includes what color a curtain is going to be in a Church building because he is a member of the First Presidency and as such he is the Presiding Officer of the Church and the Presiding Bishopric acts under his direction.  I agree with the Prophets right to administer in the Church and his right to expound the scriptures, and to exhort the members, and I sustain his right to receive revelation for the Church, but if he does not present it to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the members then it is not binding on the members.  

Again, the Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can and does receive revelation on the color of curtains, the length of a hallway, and he approves these things and makes administrative decisions, all of which are inspired but that does not give that policy binding authority on anyone other then those who are part of the administration of the Church and directly responsible to the First Presidency in its roles as Ecclesiscal head and Administrative Head of the Church.

[Quote]You're wrong to say that the publications of the Church are not carefully analyzed, each publication of the Church is carefully read and aproved by the First Presidency, even the Ensign Magazine![/Quote]  

Actually it is reviewed by the Correlation Department, who receive their authority from inspiration and revelation to the Prophet of the Church, and then after careful research, evaluation, review, etc the Quorum of the Twelve in committee (3 members) approve the decision and research of the Department and specifically the Research Information Division.  I suggest you think again about your belief that "each publication of the Church is carefully read and approved by the First Presidency, even the Ensign Magazine" because it is not, they simply do not have the time to do so and that is why the Quorum of the Twelve in the Correlation Executive Committee, and the Priesthood Executive Committee (and depending on the material one of the other two committees) approve these publications.  Do they carefully review it, in some cases they would but they should not have to in every situation because they having already received revelation and inspiration have chosen those who would effect these policies.

In fact I DID NOT SAY THE PUBLICATIONS OF THE CHURCH WERE NOT CAREFULLY ANALYZED.  In fact, I said the exact opposite, they are analyzed by hundreds of people, analyzed by staff, including men who are well educated in the doctrines of the Church and by the time it gets to the Quorum of the Twelve they need not go into great detail because they have already been kept abreast of what was being approved.[pm_moderation_note=This post was smited (-20 points) by JB@Trinidadpm_end]I am about tired of these long drawn out posts![/pm_moderation_note]

Journal Discourses - Page 11

Edward, I am about tired of your rants. You write a lot but seem to misunderstand or misinterpret basic English? You say one thing and then mean a next and then on top of that you insult other members of this forum. This is not acceptable and ends here!

Journal Discourses Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 11

Just a note here:

The complete set of files of the Journal of Discourses is now available online at:
https://www.bordeglobal.com/foruminv/index.php?showforum=120

More documents will be added to the site within the next few days.

NightHawk