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Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 50

From Larry King Live about Warren Jeffs a question was asked if what is happening with the FLDS is a view into the past of what main stream Mormonism was like 150 years ago. A reporter answered "No" saying that Warren perverted everything. However I would like to say that Warren is a very good example of why if Plural Marriage were to exist today that the same things would happen within the current Church, that is to say, abuse, secret evils, etc.

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I have to disagree very strongly with these statements. Warren Jeffs' abuses came because there is complete secrecy in everything about his religion. Since the State and the prominent religions have worked so hard to drive the FLDS underground that they have succeeded in making ALL the people paranoid. So, there was no accountability, and these abuses become stronger and stronger.

There are all sorts of cults, organizations, and even mainstream churches that have developed just as horrendous abuses, with strict monogamy. Your statements appear to assert that it is the polygamy involved that led to the abuses. I think that you are using a totally unsupported stereotype.

I have known people who claimed to have gone through systematic, ritual sexual abuse as children and youth, within their mainstream LDS stake, with the Stake President and High Council members directly involved. I don't know if any of it is true, but the point is that the accusations can be made anywhere, about anyone. It is also entirely possible that they could be true.

Unfortunately, I think you have bought into the propaganda of the "Tapestry Against Polygamy", and other anti-polygamy groups.

Before I would be willing to accept even a tiny bit of your assertion, I would have to see where such abuses were systemic in historic polygamy. I don't think it is possible to show it within Mormon history.

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No disrespect, but sometimes you do make me laugh. I have not bought into anything or subscribed into anything. Based on the Larry King show I was merely pointing out that men are base and evil and will pervert anything for there own needs. The point that men in callings pervert laws today is ashame, I am saying that having something like Polygamy now will give them greater access to do so! Next, had we kept on with Plural Marriage I would dare say that the Church would have become very similar or worst off than the FLDS - you cannot fight a government in arms with women and children.

Page 50 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

What I meant is that the words and phrases you used are exactly what the anti-polygamy groups use, especially when they are taking pot shots at the LDS Church.

I am positive, without watching Larry King (which I never do) that he used the same types of statements, as did the people he interviewed.

Well, that is the argument that the apostates, and the evil, corrupt US government used to persecute the Church. What acceptance of such an argument means to me is that the people using that argument don't have faith that God meant what He said through His Prophets about the subject - that it is absolutely necessary in order for people to enter the Celestial Kingdom, that it is His Will that we live it, and that it is a true and holy, eternal Principle.

Your statement appears to assume that it is an evil and wicked practice, at all times, and that it will always lead to abuse.

I personally know several polygamists, from several different groups, that are nothing at all like the FLDS. So, what you are implying is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is spiritually poorer than these other "apostate" groups, since you think that the Church would be worse than the FLDS in its abuses.

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

I'm sorry, but you are so off target in your assumptions or perspective (which I believe is driven by emotional presumptions) of what I am getting at that I doubt replying will even be worth it. However, for the purpose of being constructive... the fact that the Lord offered a choice in the matter shows that there was little faith in practising it then, it has NOTHING to do with me. I am NOT under any obligation to live this at this time, neither do I burn brain cells over it.

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

I was saying that the argument you made is exactly what the anti-Mormons used to try to destroy the Church.

Yes, the Lord (apparently) gave the Church a choice. The choice really was to let HIM fight the battle for us, while we obeyed His Laws, or to accept the sovereignty of the State, and turn away from His Laws.

The Church chose to ignore the law. This was apparently led by one or two "Apostles" who used various political pressures, including a valid threat to split the Church, to get their way.

There are, and were, Judases in the Church.

So, if God commanded it, and it was/is necessary, why would the Church have become as bad, or worse, than the FLDS?

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 50

Probably the reason they are able to use a similar argument (it is not the same) is because history has spoken. This is not about God or Plural Marriage, this is about those willing to live it at all costs, and the bottom line of the matter, the finality of it all is this: they did not want to!

Where pray tell, do you gather that? My understanding is that the people basically rejected this law and because of their (the general membership, not a couple of faithfuls) unwillingness to sustain it the blessing was taken from them. Where oh where does it say the Lord was going to fight for them to keep having many wives?

Well, you are questioning the Prophets words concerning its removal... I suggest that if you feel your argument has so much merit that you write a letter to Gordon B. Hinckley and ask him to explain why it is so. Surely, if he being the Prophet appointed by God and still breaths day after day has not yet advocated a return to Plural Marriage then something must be either wrong with him or us - right? I am not being sarcastic, I have written to the First Presidency many times regarding many issues and have recieved a reply each time.

Like I said... we are not ready for this, just as we were not ready for the United Order, but I do not see you emphasizing the need for that too - which is something that the Lord said we needed to live. We could not handle it so He gave us Tithing, why don't you puff about the fact that we should be giving 100% rather than 10%? We could not handle Plural Marriage so he commanded we should have one wife just as He did in the Book of Mormon.

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 50

Well, doesn't the Lord say, in many, many places, that we should allow Him to fight our battles? As you pointed out, the Saints (a large majority of them) rejected the Law. That doesn't mean that it isn't still an eternal law.

Where, in scripture, or in a written revelation, are we told that He took it away? Not even Wilford Woodruff made that claim. The first Prophet to make that claim was Heber J. Grant. There is no documentation removing the requirement for this Law. I thought this was the Restoration. But we have seen, and it is well documented, many principles that were taught and accepted as true doctrine and ordinances that have either changed drastically or been completely removed since 1890.

I do believe, fully, in the Law of Consecration. Both of these, the only two laws distinctly identified as being Celestial in nature, are tied together. Heber J. Grant also killed all of the continuing attempts to live Consecration - the United Order.

What you are saying, it appear to me, is that since the majority of the Saints aren't/weren't willing to live the Celestial Laws, that those who WERE willing were penalized - not ALLOWED to live those Laws. So, if someone is prepared, and willing to live it now, and feels that they are called to do so, the Church will excommunicate them, claiming that they are unworthy to enter the Celestial Kingdom, because of the political laws of this Telestial world.

It appeared, in your previous message, that you were saying that if the Church had insisted on abiding by these Celestial Laws, that the Church would have become like the FLDS. This despite Wilford Woodruff's claim that the Lord did NOT command the Church to stop plural marriage.

As for writing to President Hinckley, do I look stupid? The Church has made it very clear that any attempt to even LEARN more on this subject, let alone question it, it grounds for excommunication. Every time someone publishes a book about plural marriage, that is not completely negative about the Principle, that author is excommunicated, or threatened with excommunication.

I know that Celestial Plural Marriage is a true and eternal principle. I can't believe that the Lord established the Restoration, only to remove the opportunity for some of the Saints to advance as far as possible. I also know that the Law of Consecration is a true and eternal law.

Unfortunately, I am too wicked and addicted to begin to live either law. That doesn't remove from me the conviction that God expects us to do whatever it takes to live His Laws.

I cannot condemn anyone for choosing to live what they believe to be the Laws of God, especially when those Laws were clearly revealed through Joseph Smith. I don't know which, if any, of the existing groups have the proper authority, but I am positive that it is an integral part of the Patriarchal Priesthood, which the Church has now completely rejected. I just find it extremely distressing when people are persecuted, even by the Church, for living according to their consciences. This does NOT justify, in any way, the FLDS practices that are Warren Jeffs is being prosecuted for. I am just commenting on the phrases that are/were used by the Church leadership, and by the media whenever they describe the polygamists. Words that I know, from personal experience, are lies when used to describe all of the polygamists.

By the way, when, and where, did the Lord command us to NOT live the Law of Consecration? I know that I made a Covenant to live it. Didn't you? And if you did, when did God release you from that Covenant? I know that He has never released ME from it.