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Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 6

[quote]plural marriage must be practised to seal all the unseal sisters.as for a priesthood holder with higher authority that can marry your wife ,i think it is better to marry her that lust after her.their must be order in the eternities not disorder. [/quote]

It is better to marry her that lust after her?. This is sin first of all and secondly is adultery and this is the whole issue here. Also as I mentioned before in my posts, I could understand the whole concept of Plurality of wives but if you read section 132 you will see there is no way where the Lord talks about 'polyandry' or plurality of husbands (This was the case of those sisters who were sealed to the Prophet but still married with their first husbands without a divorce). The same applies to the same ones that after Joseph Smith died got married Brigham Young. I tell ya, this is a mess! *laughs* I really hope to find the answers I'm looking for. The whole concept about Plurality of Wives for the single and the widows only it's a misconception based on the fact that some of these women were legally married and their husbands supported them financially....that's why I cannot understand the need for it.

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

LDS_forever link=board=oil;num=1053342942;start=32#37 date=06/02/03 at 10:27:32]

You:Dale, thank you very much for your comments. Some of them are really interesting. The testimony of Mary Lightner would prove somehow that Joseph had sexual intercourse with her when she said in a BYU speech the following:

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."

Me:If she heard about children from a "they" she had only second hand knowledge. Did she at the time have knowledge that the womens relationship with Joseph just wasn't platonic? Who are the six wives?

You:Isn't this something interesting Dale?. Do you believe in her own testimony that was recorded in BYU?.

Me:joseph told her to be faithful to Adam Lightner? She does not claim she & Joseph had an improper relationship.

You:Melissa Lott Willes testified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed."

Me:Todd Comptom quoted Joseph 3rds interview of her. But her own sisters doubted the truth of her testimony about sex. One of Melissas sisters had heard of children to & stated that she tracked down the children & found them mythical. Joseph 3rd had thought his father could have made multiple agreements or associations for the eternities. Her testimony was rejected by the judge in his decision. The Judge acknowledged the possibility of sexuality but he also wasn't sure everybody had told the truth. Todd Comptom re-wrote the document & left out significant portions of this interview in order to weaken Joseph 3rds interview? Basically he inserted comments inbetween quotes & fictionalized the interview. Plus Joseph's son saw a family Bible with Melissa Lotts notation about the marriage. Cornelius Lot Melissas father had written "Married my daughter to Joseph Smith 1843..." Joseph 3rd also also admitted the possibility of sexuality but interpreted the sealings as possibly "agreements or associations for worlds to com." I havn't seen one of these scholars tell the whole truth about the temple Lot case, Joseph 3rds position yet. All of them leave out important things like the Judges descision.

You:Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.
Benjamin Johnson wrote "On the 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife."

Can we dismiss all these testimonies?.

Me:I will get to the rest of your post later. Emily Partridges testimony was rejected by the Judge in that case as well. Actually the facts in Benjamin F. Johnsons quote contradict other dates for the supposed sleepover with Almira. Actually Newell & Avery have the sleepover occuring on May fifteenth. That only leaves October 1843 as the time for the Almira sleepover. April was when I think he was first introduced to the practice. His memory was good enough for him to remember exact dates of Josephs visits to his home in 1843 but not enough to keep his facts strait. Perhaps as an old fellow his memory was bad & he guessed.

I would say some suggestions of sex is hardly proof Joseph stole other mens wives.

You:In the case you mention of Sis. Kimball, you know she was only 14 at that time which would be understandable why was not intercourse until she may be older.

Me:there's no proof Joseph had sex with Helen. Todd Comptom admitted himself that to Kerry Shirts.

You:Now, as you well said, D&C doesnt have any mentions about polyandry, which would suggest for me that was not something allowed why? because D&C have mention of polygamy but NOT polyandry, which I can interpret from it is that God intented for these women to be SINGLE and not married to fulfill that commandment.

Me:Right. You are still assuming Joseph had improper relations with married women.

You:Now, why these women who were sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity were also married to Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball later, when Smith died? (even if they were married for time only, because these men were ALREADY legally married to other wives. The dates of the marriages for instance of Heber C. Kimball suggest that in a single month he got married more than 2 wives who were previously married and also sealed to the Prophet Joseph) Do you have an answer for this?.

Me:Heber wasn't Joseph.

You:Now, we can research in ALL books but the best of all is go to D&C 132 to read it and when I read it, in my opinion, there is more than enough prove that these marriages involved sex. I would highlighted the words or phrases in which in my understanding prove that these marriages involved sexual intercourse.

Me:D.&C. 132 does not say Joseph had relations with all of the 33 women on the list of wives. It would suggest that Emily Partridges testimony might be true. But I also caution it would only confirm the possibility of sex in cases Emma had personal knowledge of.

Sincerely,

Robert

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon

Robert, thanks for your comments. It seems to me that you give a lot to credibility to Joseph Smith III, I really don't for the simple fact that I know they don't believe Joseph had plural wives but in any case, I think the whole issue here for me is that it seems impossible to prove whether Joseph had sexual intercourse with these women or not. We have to ask him that I guess LOL ;D
But I do think there is a lot of interesting information out there that would suggest he did have. I do understand why some members just reject this possibility (if you think about it too seriously then you may have a lot of issues to deal with as a member!)
What I most interested right now is to find out the following:

1. What was the reason Joseph Smith gave to the fact of being sealed to already married women.

2. If there is any cases of Smith being sealed to already sealed women.

3. Why some married sisters who later on were sealed to Joseph, after he died in 1844 they re-marry Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball without having a formal divorce?.

4. If its true that Brigham taught that is not necessary for a woman to get a divorce if she's getting married someone with 'higher authority'.

Page 6 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Hi,

LDS Forever,

Tod Comptom tampered with Josephs interview of Melissa Lot & it's not a reliable reporting of what happened. I find it amazing that scholars quote what they want but don't have enough space or research time to quote ignored RLDS sources. They quote every anti-Mormonect but Joseph 3rd never gets nor do important RLDS sources. Joseph 3rd had been told by James Whitehead that the original of D.&C. 132 which he saw had nothing to do with modern polygamy. He had served as a secretary of Joseph in Nauvoo. Basically others told Joseph 3rd D.&C. 132 was a forgery so this is why he doubted the validity of the document. Joseph 3rd wasn't final in his rejection of the possibility of his father having been involved in actual cases of polygamy though he distrusted the main witnesses of his fathers practices. Even with Melissa Lot Willes he had thought his father made possible agreeements or associations for worlds to com. In the end he allowed Judge Phillips in the Temple Lot case to consider Josephs legal guilt for polygamy to make a decision. RLDS have always been a mixture of those who believe he was involved & those who doubt polygamy affidavits. RLDS scholar Rodger Launius believes Joseph was involved. I lean RLDS myself but I do not discount all polygamy evidences myself. I heard Todd Comptoms case & felt like some LDS that he guesses to much. Richard Lloyd Anderson an LDs scholar thought the book had some flaws.

In response to your issues.

1.He felt God commanded him to be sealed to already married women. Another one I thought of is D.&C. 132 doesn't prevent the idea of adopting other mens biological children as Joseph's.  I give Heber J. Grants mothers proxy sealing to Joseph after his death & his being refereed by Brigham H. Roberts as a son of Joseph Smith as an example of this spiritual adoption idea. The spiritual adoption idea avoids the mess of explaining the appearance of children. Nothing improper need have happened in order for Josephg to have had children spiritually via adoption.

2.There are twelve cases of polyandry attributed to Joseph Smith Jr. Though I doubt a reliable case for sexual impropriety has been made against Joseph on this one. For example Syvia Sessions may have possibly claimed to her daughter that she was a spiritually adopted daughter of Joseph Smith Jr. Heber Grant had been referred to as a son of the prophet Joseph Smilarly via spiritual adoption. I feel Josephine wasn't questioned about her knowledge of the terminology associated with plural marriage so I don't know. The women continued to live with the living husbands & there is no evidence of them being visited improperly by Joseph. I heard one report of someone who said I talk to a plural wive & had the woman she had to hide Joseph's visits from her husband. Such stuff is mythical as personal conversations can be made up.

3.I assume formal divorces were impossible to obtain.  To give Brigham Young & Heber C. Kimball the benifit of the doubt the circumstances of living out west may have disrupted legal processes. Possibly the women didn't like the existing husbands & they felt the law wasn't neccesary to follow.

4.Brigham Young probably thought that the Church not the government should control plural marriages. Since he was already breaking U.S. law by practicing polygamy he felt his religious beliefs took precidance over what people liked or didn't like legally about what he did.

5.I would add a fifth  issue to yours that of the rumored children. Occasionally I see scholars rumoring that children of married women, ect might have been Josephs. None of these examples are ever proven & it's all specultative hogwash. When I look for evidences of sexuality except for a few cases nothing is known about sexuality if any in most of the 33 cases of polygamy & Joseph Smith Jr. Only in a few cases are there specific claims of sexuality enough that its neccesary to admit the examples.

Do my answers help you?

Sincerely,

Robert

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Robert, thanks again for your replies. Regards to the impossibility of obtaining a legal divorce, I really cannot talk much about it but I do (from history sources) that they were well available at the time of Brigham Young for instance. But let's assume they were not, is that a good excuse to just leave their husbands and marry someone else?. Personally, I don't think so. Even like you mentioned maybe Brigham thought that the Church should be the one who handle the legality or not or plural marriage, but in any case they were breaking the law and that's against our principles (of respecting first the laws of the land) not to mention if these women were not divorced from their husband and marry someone else after, that's adultery.
Now, about the idea of 'spiritual children' I have serious doubts about it, basically because as you well said it's impossible to prove whether Joseph had sex with these women or not, I think someone who don't believe this, no matter what they will not give credibility to affidavits, or testimonies or journals or anything...so the only way to find out that is to ask him and we cannot do that now. BUT hear this and for me that's a kind of evidence that Joseph Smith did in fact had sexual intercourse with these ladies...those wives he took that were married to good LDS members in good standing, some of their husbands gave Joseph a really hard time when he ask them to be marry their wives, some of them didn't want to know anything about it. Some of they cry, complaint and all...tell me if what Joseph Smith did was only be 'sealed' to them,  why these men would be so upset about 'giving up' their wives?.

The whole issue of RLDS and the LDS Church 'silence' or 'doubts' about whether Joseph had sexual intercourse with these ladies it's pretty obvious, it would be a bomb! can you imagine?. But I don't want to sound 'doubtful', I'm just looking for answers that can make sense, so far Joseph Smith being sealed to married women, it doesn't click with me nor the fact that he was sealed to them only (as I mentioned before some of the brethren were really upset about all this INCLUDING the sisters, why they would be so angry if was not only a matter to be sealed? was something else involved in all this that we don't know? that's what I'm trying to find out, also why the sisters got married Brigham after Joseph death if they were ALREADY SEALED to him (Joseph)?). There are lots of points that I don't see an answer really.

NOT all the women who were married and sealed to Joseph were living with the first husbands. Some of them were living with Joseph while their husbands were on missions, same case with Brigham Young.

You well mentioned that there are 12 cases of polyandry in Joseph Smith life...but there is no mention in D &C about poylandry BUT Plurality of wives which would suggest like I said before that these ladies were supposed to be single...there is no mention about married women having more than 1 husband.
You dismiss a lot of information but you have to think Robert that if an affidavit can be fake, conversations can be 'made up', documents can be also fake...what do you have in the end then? Nothing. I think we need to give some credibility to some documents and stuff because if not, there is no way to give a response of these issues, don't you think?.

[quote]When I look for evidences of sexuality except for a few cases nothing is known about sexuality if any in most of the 33 cases of polygamy & Joseph Smith Jr. Only in a few cases are there specific claims of sexuality enough that its neccesary to admit the examples. [/quote]

Oh, are you saying there is some few cases with evidence that he did in fact has sexuality with some of these wives? can you please give me the examples?


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my messages, I really appreciate it.

[offtopic] I visited your forum and web site the other day...woww...it's huge!!! [/offtopic]

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

[quote]...what do you have in the end then? Nothing.[/quote]
I wouldn't say 'nothing', we still have the Spirit. Now I don't mean to get all softy and cushiony, but really in the end that is what it comes down too. Everything about the Church seems really impossible to believe. First you start off with a 14 year old not just claiming to see Christ, but the Father too! Then you say Peter, James and John gave him the priesthood, gold plates from centuries ago, plural wives, moving to Utah, building temples, baptizing dead? Sounds strange? Well that is what we believe in, hopefully because the Spirit manifested truth to us. Now, in my thoughts I reckon the Spirit can also invigorate my mind with thoughts and feelings to understand this as it did with ther other 'impossibile doctrines'. Not to believe they did the wrong thing, but that what they did was misinterpreted to be the wrong thing. I am not surprised this was done under caution and control, Christ did many of the 'more important' stuff away from the public's eye so much so that even his Disciples started to ask questions about it. So the 'hush hush' part does not concern me. I also believe there are many other things that might be too much for us to consider still, but that are truths. Hence they have been kept back? (Scroll of Joseph, lost 116 pages, dead sea, etc) I have the feeling that during the Millenium we are in for a shock as it were...

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 6

Hi,

I just have strong confidence that Joseph Smith Jr's relationship with a lot of the women was platonic. Todd Comptom did not establish sex via many of his proof texts & arguments.  The only proof of sexuality would be a direct claim of the wife or a child born to Joseph Smith Jr. via such a wife. Only in a few cases are there direct testimonies such as in the temple Lot case. And of the rest of the proofs many are weak. Emma & Joseph had several children together. David Smith was born after his fathers death. When these scholars argue for children usually it's they could have been his children kind of argument. About the only possible real child I know of is Josephine Lyons Fisher the daughter of Sylvia Sessions.  I find it ipossible that Joseph Smith Jr. was involved in unrestrained sexual activity without tons of children being born to him. They didn't have any birth control only abortions. I know of no proof of the old claim by John C. Bennet Joseph had had abortions performed for him. Todd Comptoms proofs for sex was a dud not a bomb. And the possibility of sex was admitted by Joseph 3rd in his interview of Melissa Lott Willes. Both LDS & RLDS have long known about claims of sex & Joseph Smith Jr. What's troubling is the misrepresented polyandry cases I keep on reading. The scholars skip the possibility of the living husbands of the wives acting as surrogate fathers in Joseph's place. No improper relationship need have taken place in order to raise up spiritually adopted offspring to Joseph Smith Jr.

As far as certain plural wives of Joseph re-marrying Brigham Young. I assume it was the idea more important to fulfil the commandment than who they ended up with.  

Sincerely,

Robert

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 6

ok so the idea of sharing a husband with 6 other women does not bother me, in a eternity perspective. One earth, I don't think it is possible, because of jeolousy