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Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 62

Well the principle involved in the way you treat your children and others is based on Love. I am not sure how you equate that to Plural Marriage that is why you have me a bit confused with your emphasis on it.

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

MhGraham:

You mean specific people right now or in the near future may be required to live this Law again while on this Earth? With or without Church sanction?

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon

JB: The following was meant to be posted in the Texas Polygamist Thread, but he was going off topic so much that I saw the info only relevant to here:

Name: Robert

Comments: What do you people really know about polygamy???
I am always appalled about what peoples reactions are, however I am not surprised because it is groups like the Warren Jeffs that take the lime light and give the rest of the polygamy groups a black eye. And there are a couple of other lunatic groups out there. But there are other groups living the poly life where women under 18 are not allowed to get married etc. So don't judge this lifestyle with some lunatic religious fanatics. The breaking up of a relationship in a poly situation is about the same as that of a monogamous one. Polygamy has been and still is practiced in many parts of the world. Even in Europe, polygamy was very common. Most people in the old testament times lived polygamy and several religious groups during Joseph Smith's time also lived poly. The Mormons certainly were not the only onces. As far as legality is concerned, you need to read up on church history regarding our own records of freely complying with the "law" We certainly broke the law as leaders of the church, we had several manifestos and only became dead serious on 1904 with it because the church became branded by Washington as a bunch of liars and covenant breakers. We did sealings in Canada and Mexico as well as on boats off the coast. Seems like your heart is not really into quitting if you ask me. The church is kinda between a rock and a hard place. Look at our current leaders and you will find most of their great grand parents to be polygamists. Even the Utah, Arizona and British Columbia's attorney Generals have struck a team agreement to co-operate but only will go after minority sexually abused etc etc. And so they should. The day of polygamy will come. It is just a matter of time. If same sex is allowed, like in Canada and many other parts of the world, where will be your argument against polygamy? The expect it to be legal in Canada in 10 years and why not? If it becomes legal, the polygamy issue will be out of the closed and cases of abuse will be much easier dealt with. The number of poly people in the USA is estimated between 50,000 and 100,000. Indicating to me that we have no handle on what we are dealing with. Today's poly families are based on mutual agreement, not force. Some sisterwives stay at home looking after the kids while others may work as doctors, engineers, attorneys, accountants, you get the idea. You probably have no idea who are poly in your own circles of professional life. To me, stopping polygamy was a price paid to get statehood for Utah. To keep us from bankruptcy, to get our leaders out off prison. Poly is an eternal principal and we will life poly in the eternities. Today we seal women to one man in our temples. What do you think will happen to these sisters and children? Read the D&C 132 as well as the journal of discourses. If our conference talks are to be regarded as scripture, does that apply to the conference talks during the 1850-1889 as well?
Sorry to ramble on like this.
A question to think about? What are your thoughts about father Adam? Did he live polygamous? To populate the world with one wife seems rather slow. Let me see, one child per year or do you think they had triplets every year, for 200 years etc etc you get the idea. In breeding? Enough said, and I am moving away from the topic. My apology.

Page 62 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

This is a law and doctrine that is required of us to receive exaltation. In fact Brigham Young stated that it must be lived in this life. People question what he means by this and this is obviously a large debate.

But I think it is evident that as a people we lost this just as did the followers of Moses with the higher laws and were thus required to live the Law of Moses. The Lord took away the Higher Law for them as a people. A individuals I don't think that God would ever limit us in all that he has commanded if we truly were repentant and would seek to follow him.

God commands nothing save he should prepare a way and would not command us of something unless we could follow that commandment. So we have been told in scripture, by modern Prophets such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and John Taylor that this is a law that must be lived and that it IS doctrinal. The debate among many is if it will be allowed to be lived again on the earth right?

Well, although I am not in a polyg. relationship I believe that it can be obtained in this life. I am obviously not doing enough of what I should to have found exactly how and by what authority.

What I do know is that God would provide a way if necessary to do so. As John Taylor said after the issuing of the Manifesto, It is from The Trials of John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley. p.9

"Apostle John W. Taylor: My view is that the Lord was anxious to put everybody upon his own responsibility and take the responsibility from the Church."

It is evident that even after the manifesto, the leadership was commanded to continue living and many more of these marriages were performed after the manifesto. So from John Taylor's comment are we finding that it is now upon us as individuals and not for the "church" to tell us what to do in this regard?

The church MUST divorce themselves from this doctrine to be taught as a whole obviously at the wisdom of God. But it is an eternal Principle.

Joseph Smith once said that, if all men would take their priesthood seriously and seek to magnify and bring up children in the way the Lord intended then we would not be required of this law, but they won't and so this is necessary.

As recently taught at the leadership round table, we have children to "save souls". So every single child born outside of the covenant is blood on our heads. It is our responsibility and stewardship as members of Christs Church and of us who have been born into this line, that we bring all unto Christ.

I believe that worse (as described by so many) than living the law of Plural Marriage is those who live in relationships of uncommitted marriages, illegitimate children, sleeping around, adulterous self gratifying lifestyles.

So yes, right now I think is it possible that individuals may be or have been commanded by God to live this law. It is not the Church who will be found commanding this thing or through the Church that it will be done. At least not out in the open.

The Church never sanctioned it from what I understand anyway. It was always a private matter and it may have been said of the prophet, bishops etc to do so, but it was not ever meant to be a church practice. It is purely individualistic in my belief.

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Mhgraham, are you sure you are not related to Nighthawk? Actually you did not answer my question above:

I agree that there have been Plural Marriages after the manifesto, but after about 1905-1915 the ideology of doing it in secret seemed to have died. Now, if you are saying that we are do this on a personal level and that it is a matter of salvation to live this law wouldn't it not be necessary for our leaders to set the example. Or are you saying the the leaders do this in secret too?

Rather off topic, but... I have not seen you here in a long time, I'm also surprised that you did not tackle any of the other thre pages of Topics within this Board.

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

I don't know who Nighthawk is sorry.

Anyway, I feel that I answered the question. I believe it is necessary for salvation. I cannot answer whether the leadership is doing them in private or not. What I do know is that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", has a very important role on this earth. Many keys are within this church for salvation, yet we know that not all keys are within the church. The church is a gathering of Zion. It is not a guarantee of salvation, nor does it contain all keys for salvation, only the introduction to such. It is up to US as individuals to seek the rest.

No. I believe there are many things that must be obtained personally however I have found evidence in every talk, in every quote that the leadership has done much to incourage us to study on our own. The do not welcome the practice of unrightous and wicked acts, but we have been instructed by God and by prophets to search these things out for ousleves, yet how many obtain their endowments and what they consider to be their temple sealing and figure they have done all that is asked of them as long as they continue reading their scriptures, saying their prayers, attending the temple, and magnifying their church office?

There are so many who say we should only study from the scriptures and discourage our studying or discussing of these things. Obviously you know better which is why you are here discussing these things and so you study these things out for yourself. Many go to far and take authority upon themselves. Like freedom and liberty and Natural Rights we cannot take upon us or give what we do not have or have not been given. So in this many see this as a sign to not go any further, yet others decide to close their eyes and take a step past, forming their own churches, doing certain things in secret etc.

For us to take these principles and try to teach the WHOLE of the membership, and to lead away others using higher doctrine it both a damning practice and is discouraged/punished by the leadership of the Church and by God. There are many checks and balances, yet if we always put God first, and seek to know the things of God for the purpose of furthering his kingdom then I beleive God will honor and accept our sacrifice and efforts. GOd knows our hearts and this is not to be used as an excuse. THis applies in plural marriage just as it applies in sacrament, baptism and other ordinances. We must be pure in heart. Not perfect, but pure. We are obviously going to make mistakes. As Alma says we must practice the things we learn and if they are true and right they will have root and will grow. If not they will wither and die.

I know that much of this is repetitive but I feel I must give a background of my understanding, and I hold it as only that. My opinion and understanding. I do not claim authority.

As far as in private, it was said by the leadership after the manifesto that this practice should continue and that if they did not continue the practice they would be taken from their position and if I remember right they could lose their membership in the church. What I do remember and I can provide you with quotes later( I don't have them here with me) but they were told that they would basically be damned for not living this law within the leardership, in the same conversation. They were also told that if found out however that they would be required to answer for it unto themselves and that they WOULD at that time lose membership in the church. So in answer to your question of if they do it in practice? I don't know, but they did for a time and it did go VERY underground. There are many things we do not know about the practices of the leadership in regard to apostles and presidency.

I don't believe that GOd would withhold the blessing of exaltation from the rest of us and only designate them to the leadership in the church. Like I said in the quote before, President Taylor said that he felt God wanted to take this from the responsibility of the church and put it on the individuals. They would be required to answer for the purity of heart and intention.

The Lord, nor the church will command in all things, yet they have done plenty and spoken much on these issues.

I can recall several times where the leadership has been asked about certain doctrines and practices and the answer to media, members etc. was that the membership of the church have been sufficiently instructed on the matter.

In other words, the Lord is not going to continue harping on about something he has sufficiently taught. The people rejected the law of consecration, the law of Plural Marriage and many others and so now they must repent and on bended knee regain these things. Yes we have tithes and offerings, but we are not living the United Order as commanded by God. It was rejected and now must be rebuilt individually.

Willful ignorance is not going to save us. We must seek these things out. "Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you." however I believe you will be asked before he answers the intent of this understanding, just as Nephi was asked by the angel of the Lord, Do you ask this of yourself or to glorify God?

When Nephi was found to be pure in heart it was given. We have been told that we can all become like those we read about and gain what they have, yet we give the excuse, "It will probably take millions of years". Yes, but we start now and do all we can.

You said that doing it in secret seemed to have died. Perhaps it has only ceased to have been written? I don't know. I don't believe it is the duty of the church to do it for you to though. The Church already rejected it as a whole.

Rather off topic, but... I know I have not been in for awhile. I have been very busy with and with other obligations. I wish I had more time to get into more of the topics.

Message Edited... JB: Fixed your tags, removed the repeat quote.

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 62

Nighthawk is a Member here (not active) who pushed the same view point you have. My main point ithat I used to have with him and also with you are saying is that the Church today does NOT have the same sympathy or should I say perspective you have. The leaders in fact have said it is NOT doctrinal, so what are we to now believe, the Church has fallen into Apostasy starting with the Prophet?

I understand that it is an eternal principle, and that one day we will have to abide it, but not even the Church will teach that, not now. I have the feeling that even if Plural Marriage were to become lawful tomorrow the Church would still not authorize it. They may even continue to fight it and try to appeal the law even though many would say the Lord has prepared Zion to live the law once again. It is just not kosher for Members, especially Sisters who have a different more dominant say in family matters than in Brigham's time.

My other point is that to enter into Plural Marriage one must go to the correct authority to have it done righteously. It is the same procedure for any salvation ordinance, for instance baptism - one cannot just decide for themselves that they should be baptized or baptize them self. My point again, we are fighting against the same system that has instructed us to live the law and also has told us to no longer live the law - don't even talk about it.

Rather off topic, but... I know you have not been here in awhile, but please follow our guidelines for Posting as it helps everything to be readable and encourages uniformity in Discussion: 1. Use the Quote Tags when quoting someone or source material. 2. Use the Offtopic Tag when you are saying something not related to the Discussion. 3. Rather than double Post, if you have something to add just hit the [Mod] button and edit / modify your original Post and add in what you forgot. 4. When replying to the Post above you do not quote the entire thing. See Constructive Posting Policy

I fixed your other Posts based on above. We have other similar Discussions related to this Topic that you should check out.

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 62

Listening to the last General Conferences, the Church has changed a lot on their approach with regards to the doctrine and the way we are perceived as a religious group. We are way too concerned on how we "look" rather than what seems to be important.

I strongly believe that the Church will never authorize the practice of Plural Marriage ever again. Since we believe in modern revelation, what the current Prophet thinks on the matter is what the Church considers "doctrinal". Brigham Young and other Prophets believed in many things, were all doctrinal and binding? How do we recognize the difference?

If Plural Marriage is necessary for Salvation, what is going to happen with the millions of people who died without living this law?

The biggest wall against this practice right now is the Church itself and I don't see any changes anytime soon.