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Related Information to Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 63 of 79
People in general are starting to see that - Page 63 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 6th May, 2008 - 4:58pm
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Mormon Doctrine on Plural Marriage - This Thread goes deep into all the angles of Mormon Polygamy, the requirement of Celestial Marriage which once encompassed Plural Marriage and the current standing of it with the modern Church. Also deeply analyzed is Joseph Smith's secret practise of it that latter lead to his death. Controversial Mormon Issue. Related Information to Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...Post Date: 8th Apr, 2008 - 3:47am / Post ID: #
Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 63
| QUOTE |
| My main point is that I used to have with him and also with you are saying is that the Church today does NOT have the same sympathy or should I say perspective you have. |
When did I say that the church shares this perspective? Are you an authority of the church as well as an administrator to let me know the stance of the church? I agree that the church does not feel these same things about plural marriage. The church has rejected the law.
I cannot speak for the Elders in the Church, I don't know what they say to the world and what they really feel. The fact that they have said to the world one thing and another inside the walls and confines of the church is a fact. People can believe what they want. There is a scripture that addresses this. Mathew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Let us then discuss this principle and necessary law.
D&C 131:1-4
| QUOTE |
| "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase." |
The new and Everlasting Covenant has been referred to as meaning Plural Marriage by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor and among many others it has been referred to in those terms by God.
When President Taylor inquired of the Lord about Plural Marriage, the Lord said,
| QUOTE |
| "My son John. You have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant and far it is binding upon my people." |
(Ibid.,p. 145)
In the marriage ceremony we are given instruction to live this law when it says,
In the marriage ceremony we are given instruction to live this law when it says,
| QUOTE |
| "...with a covenant and promise, on your part, that you will fulfill all the laws, rites, and ordinances, pertaining to this holy order of matrimony, in the new and everlasting covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses at this alter of your own free will and choice? ...All these blessings, together with all other blessing pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, I seal upon your heads, through your faithfulness unto the end." |
In the St. George Temple minute Book, p. 102-103 it explains this ceremony and it's words,
| QUOTE |
| "Our young people come here to be married, to be husband and wife through all eternity taking upon them covenants to observe all the laws, rites and ceremonies pertaining to the Holy order of matrimony, this is the way God has established, and the ceremony that seals one wife to a man seals other wives. And when a man takes his wife they enter this sacred order and covenant to observe all the rites in this. The man covenants to take more wives, the woman covenants to do the part of Sarah and gives her consent for him to take more wives...A covenant not kept is a covenant broken. When we enter that covenant we must continue in it. Still, there is no one here who will say you shall take more wives, that is left entirely to yourselves." |
Wilford Woodruff said,
| QUOTE |
| "When a man, according to revelation, [Sec. 132] marries a wife under the holy order which God has revealed, and then marries another in the same way, he enters into the into the New and Everlasting Covenant..." |
(Wilford Woodruff to Bishop Samuel A. Woolley, 22 may 1888; Wilford Woodruff Letterbook, L.D.S. Church Archives, p.38)
| QUOTE |
| The leaders in fact have said it is NOT doctrinal |
Joseph Smith and other prophets taught that it was doctrinal. Joseph Smith taught that it ws not only doctrinal but that it was "the most holy and important DOCTRINE ever revealed to man on earth." (Historical Record 6:226)
In fact Joseph F. Smith also said, Joseph F. Smith said, according to the Journal of Discourses:
| QUOTE |
| "Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity or non-essential, to the salvation or exaltation of mankind. In other words, some of the saints have said, and believe, that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. "I want here to enter my solemn protest against this idea, for I know it is false "¦ this is the beginning of the law, not the whole of it," he said. "Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it." |
So he is saying that although members believe they will receive exaltation with one wife just as one could with multiple wives they are WRONG.
| QUOTE |
| so what are we to now believe, the Church has fallen into Apostasy starting with the Prophet? |
You may think that is what it means. I disagree. I believe that there is more to the story than you think and the what you think you hear you are lead to believe it would be apostasy. I don't feel this is the case but rather leads to casting pearls before swine, and according to many of the prophets and the scriptures, the LARGEST pearl of them all pertaining to the salvation of man.
Are you under the impression that Joseph Smith and the latter prophets are fallen or wrong? So only the prophet of your time can have the fullness and be correct because they reject the law? I guess that is yet another sin of the church as a whole in rejecting the prophets, even as early as Ezra Taft Benson. It is a pretty sad day when Deseret Book carries books rejecting Ezra Taft Benson and other prophets.
I could go on. You can say what you want but I thought you guys had studied this stuff. I thought that this is what was spoken of when you put Mature LDS Discussions.
Perhaps I am casting pearls in the wrong direction.
 Message Edited...JB: Please see my prior post about using the Quote tags that way I do not have to add it for you. |
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Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural
| QUOTE (Mhgraham) |
| Are you an authority of the church as well as an administrator to let me know the stance of the church? |
I do not know what you are getting off on, we are having a Discussion. I do not have to be an "authority" of the Church to know where it stands. I read, listen and observe like everyone else and I am saying the Church does not share your view. Take it or leave it.
| QUOTE |
| I agree that the church does not feel these same things about plural marriage. The church has rejected the law. |
Well, if you agree what is the problem?
| QUOTE |
| I could go on. You can say what you want but I thought you guys had studied this stuff. I thought that this is what was spoken of when you put Mature LDS Discussions. Perhaps I am casting pearls in the wrong direction. |
Wow, you are really full of yourself huh? This from the same person that ran on here saying that the Isaiah scripture that is themed in this Thread has nothing to do with Plural Marriage and you later had to recant? It is amazing to me how Members venomously defend this but cannot answer the place of it in these days. Instead they run in hidden places to share their views. If you feel so strong about it then the next time you get the chance to give a talk in sacrament meeting why don't you tell everyone that we should be living the true nature of Celestial Marriage and then the steps thereby. After all you seem to be more knowledgeable and righteous than us ignorant fools here trying to learn.
| Rather off topic, but... UPDATE: After posting a nonsense reply to this Thread this user deleted their account. He made no sense at all. On one hand he claimed us ignorant of the Topic and tried to insult us using the pearls to swine analogy, but on the other hand admitted he did not know how much I know? I wonder if he was a past Member trying to infiltrate here again, we get a lot of those. As I said in another Thread, I am amazed how quick Members are to be offended Discussing Doctrine in 'secret'. |
Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon
What is your opinion on the points raised by Michael Nielsen on how the Church should handle the polygamy question?
| QUOTE |
| For many, many people, Mormonism is inextricably linked to polygamy. This is true for me, with polygamy in my family history, and having met polygamists whose beliefs include the Book of Mormon and other indisputably Mormon things. Polygamy has had, and continues to have, an important role in the development of the church, in the biographies of church leaders, in the life experiences of its members . . . the list goes on. Not every Mormon holds the same view, of course. Take a moment to read a newspaper from, say, the United Kingdom or some other place where Mormonism is an exotic curiosity, and you'll see a recurring pattern. The newspaper posts an article on the raid in Texas on the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and people's comments soon begin equating the FLDS with the LDS. Later, you read a passionate rebuttal saying that the LDS Church has nothing to do with polygamy or the FLDS. Then, another writer brings up the history of polygamy in the church, questioning the knowledge, honesty or motivation of the Mormons. The discussion appears as endless as it is futile. To deny polygamy's importance to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormonism is, well, to be in denial. Many Latter-day Saints prefer to avoid polygamy or to think that it has no bearing on the present, but this is pointless if we are to consider what other people think of the church. Evidence of this is found in the results of a recent Vanderbilt study on bias against Mitt Romney and Mormons. Negative opinions in the study shifted markedly when people were provided "clear, accurate information" about polygamy and other stereotypes regarding Mormonism. From my reading of newspaper letters, article comments and blogs, it seems that defenders of the church too often provide information that is clear but inaccurate or incomplete. For example, it strikes an observer as disingenuous when told "the LDS Church has nothing to do with polygamy," as I've read in the comments to several newspaper articles in recent days. Clear? Yes. Accurate? Not so much. What are Latter-day Saints to do? Here are a few ideas: a) Acknowledge that we were polygamous, and describe more completely the changing status of polygamy in Mormonism: the 1890 Manifesto against polygamy, another in 1904, and the more recent excommunications of polygamists from the LDS Church. Admit that this is an ongoing issue the church has faced. Follow that statement with a clarification that many understandings of Mormonism exist, as is true of all religions, but that the vast majority of the Mormons people meet are not polygamous.  Remind others that it is the extreme example that gets the most attention, both in the media and in our own memory. As a result, it is inaccurate to paint all Mormons as polygamous, just as it is inaccurate to state that all polygamists are child molesters, or that all priests are, for that matter.c) Develop a new understanding - a revelation, even - regarding Doctrine & Covenants 132, the section of Mormon scripture that forms the foundation for polygamy and celestial marriage. As part of this, discontinue the policy allowing men to be sealed to more than one woman. Such a change would make it clearer than ever that polygamy is in the past. After all, the LDS hymnal asks, "In the heavens, are parents single?" to which it answers, "No." That the current policy suggests parents are not only wed in eternity, but are sometimes even wed to more than one spouse, seriously undermines the claim that polygamy is in the past. Instead, it suggests that polygamy is in both the past and the future, and that current policy is the exception rather than the rule... |
Page 63 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural
| QUOTE |
As part of this, discontinue the policy allowing men to be sealed to more than one woman |
It is a good thing that we do not run this Church by editorial review.
The Church still teaches, as it should, that marriage in the Eternities has a distinct purpose and that primarily is the Exaltation and Eternal Life of Mankind. Part of this exaltation is the Peopling of countless worlds. Polygamy as constituted by the Lord seems to be the way this is done.
The Church has suspended the practice of Polygamy, not rejected it. We only reject Polygamy when it is practiced without the sanction of the Lord.
I am of the belief that because we cannot live a law now, we are not required to reject that law outright. If that were true, we would reject that the United Order will ever again be practiced in Zion, a prospect that I am not comfortable with.
The Policy on Polygamy, as it stands, is appropriate until the Lord tells us otherwise.
Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural
| QUOTE (Dbackers) |
| The Church has suspended the practice of Polygamy, not rejected it. We only reject Polygamy when it is practiced without the sanction of the Lord. |
The Church does not say that, at least it has not for the last 50 or so years. Actually, according to the last Prophet it is not even doctrinal. By the way...
| QUOTE |
| As part of this, discontinue the policy allowing men to be sealed to more than one woman |
That should read...
As part of this, discontinue the policy allowing living men to be sealed to more than one woman, save for very unique circumstances.
I believe I mentioned before where I know of a living active LDS Member sealed to two women. Little do people know this needs only be authorized through the Stake President as well.
Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...
I am referring to the fact that Men can still be married to more then one woman if the spouse has passed away. We still believe that if one has a wife and that wife dies and the man marries another, then he is spiritually married to more then one woman. The sealing does not become null and void when the wife is gone.
This is what I meant when I said that the church has suspended the earthly practice of Polygamy, but that it has not abandoned the eternal practice.
I do not see any evidence that the Church allows a person to be married to more then one living Woman at this time(I am sure that there are instances, though I am not aware of such).
It is pretty much commonplace, that when a man who has been married and the spouse dies, if he chooses to marry again in the temple, he will be sealed to the second wife also. It does not seem like a big deal to me.
Plural Marriage is a historical fact in almost every dispensation, and will be a way of life in the future. When we have a more eternal perspective I believe we will will see the wisdom in the Practice.
| Rather off topic, but... I do have an Aunt who was married to a man for a two years and he died, but has been Married to another man for at least 30 years. They are not sealed as she is sealed to her first husband. I always wondered how the Lord would work this out as the current husband is the one she seems to have had quite a bit more time with. |
Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 63
| QUOTE (Dbackers) |
| I am referring to the fact that Men can still be married to more then one woman if the spouse has passed away. |
Well yes, but for men death is a separation, so it is not 'seen' the same even though it is so it is not something taught. In any case you only get the answer to that (widow marrying again) when you ask. Additionally, in work for the dead a man can be married to all the women he had children with during his lifetime, again, something not taught, but you find out as you go along. In other words, the discovery of any of these thing are not Sunday teaching but discovered as you enter the temple or prepare to do so.
In the instance I mentioned the man was sealed to his first wife who became mentally ill and was committed. He got a civil divorce and was sealed again WITHOUT being unsealed from his first wife. Again, not something taught, but through pursuance of the matter you find out.
My point in all this is the Doctrine of Plural Marriage is discouraged from conversation or even mention in the general Church setting and one can only find out about it through reading or asking someone WILLING to talk about it without being biased. I find that most Members (I'm not talking about you, Dbackers) take an either water down approach or fanatical resolve on the matter. For instance they say it was then and not now, but it is not doctrinal or they are literally angry with the Church for not having it in practice today.
After much Discussion on this Topic the real test will come when Plural Marriage will be civil law and the Church no longer has an 'excuse' to justify its discontinuance. Then and only then will we see how this is handled. I am willing to bet the Church will still refuse to live it and say it is NOT for our day. I wonder what Brigham would think about this.
I would also like the Church to be honest about the Plural Marriages that happened AFTER the Manifesto with FULL knowledge of the Brethren or the Brethren themselves participating. This cannot be dismissed as the Mountain Meadows Massacre because there is formal proff that these things took place.
Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 63
People in general are starting to see that if you make Gay Marriage legal you will have to do the same for Plural Marriage because both are between consenting adults. I mention this because the FLDS Texas issue is causing a lot of talk to take place over Polygamy in secular areas and most people agree with the sentiment.
TOPIC: Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...