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Excommunicated Mormons - Page 4

Liahona,

I am totally in agreement with you. I think that it is terrible that so many scholars have been hurt and excommunicated and disfellowshiped for their writing of history. I think that one cannot erase history for we have a moral obligation to know and understand our past. Its sad that these men and women were forced by their church to decide between honesty and loyalty.
With that said, I think that the church is SLOWLY changing this perspective. Like you said Palmer was disfellowshiped- just 10 years ago he would have been excommunicated. No question about it. Scholars were excommunicated for far less. Is this not a small step into the right direction? Do you think that Bushman's book would have been sold front and center of Desseret Book 10-20 years ago? No it would not. Do you think that Waneta Brooks would have been praised for her solid work on the meadowland massacre just 10-20 years ago? Again No.
I do not think that the Joseph Smith papers would have been publish 20 years ago either, and the church would not have made a public statement about how egregiously sad and terrible the meadowland massacre was 20 years ago either.

I think the point that I am making is that I think that the church is slowly starting to tolerate this other point of view a little better. Does this mean that they are where I would like for them to be? NO it does not. Will their be other causalities of church scholars? Probably so, but I think slowly the pendulum is swinging the other way. I think think that their is a lot of reasoning for this. 1 being that they cannot keep this away from its members because of the Internet this information is out there and the church has to respond and account for it. 2) The church is loosing hundreds of members a year when they find out this stuff. They feel that they were and lied too.
3) I think that the church also wants to be open so that they can respond to the stuff instead of ignoring it. This way they set the tone and discussion for such things.

So I feel optimistic that things are changing for the better. I feel and see these little changes as a step in the right direction of a long journey. No longer is Mormon Doctrine in print, and a wide variety of opinion is being published and accepted.

Mormons Excommunicated

Name: Guest

Comments: So, this being the true church and boasting of revelation and priesthood keys? Does this make sense that they are slowly changing. That 20 years ago members would have been excommunicated? Does it take 20 years for the Lord to slowly with kicking comes around? I thought that the Lord's ways are straight?

Excommunicated Mormons Studies Doctrine Mormon

Sorry but sounds like the reasoning of an abused wife who is happy that her husband does not beat her anymore with a belt but instead slaps her face across.

I don't think the change you see should be celebrated at all. I think the church owns an apology to a lot of these authors.

Page 4 Mormons Excommunicated

Name: Guest

Comments: Well, yes, I agree with the apology but what about canceling the excommunication or re-baptizing into the church?

Mormons Excommunicated

Guest said it right what apologies? If they were wrong they need to get the act together and get these folks back into the Church and somehow canceled their disciplinary action, not sure if that is something the church does you know what am I saying?

Excommunicated Mormons

Name: Nick
Country:

Comments: I would like to add to what someone said about being truly non judgmental. Using a word like "them" to describe an excommunicated person is like referring to black men as "those guys".

Does this carry the connotation of judgment?

As subtle as that may seem, it probably comes across to someone who has been excommunicated as being alienated as opposed to being corrected with love.

Also, someone spoke of us all being imperfect and in need of repentance. How is an excommunicated person any different in that regard? Only the severity of the sin is greater but the same principles of repentance applies and God eventually extends restitution for sins forgiven and repented of.

Some act in defiance which is not good even if it is an unjust case. And that has surely happened I'm sure more than once, if scriptures describing conditions among the leaders of our day are accurate...I have no reason to doubt the Lord at his word, even if I don't personally witness an injustice. So carefully how we perceive things that were conducted from our view.

Excommunication is supposed to take on the persona of the person being judged by those in authority. Serious acts of defiant wrong doing should be met with strong rebuke...Generally not received very well by the recipient.

Then there are those who commit the same act but are of a humbled nature and may or may not be Excommunicated based on that person's true needs.

It may be that an excommunication would crush one person and men in tune with God, would know that and prescribe a lesser sentence.

While another may need the sense of being able to be released from the burden of unrighteously holding the priesthood that has become an unbearable curse around his neck that needs to be removed.

There are a host of reasons for things being prescribed different solutions and is the reason those responsible for implementing such judgments MUST be in tune and in line with God. Elsewise the curse of unjust or skewed judgment will become their own curse.

And this has also happened.

The overall purpose is either for the good of the person being judged or for the good of getting filth out of the Lord's House.

And the difference between those two types of judgment SHOULD be contingent on the attitude of the person being judged and those who are called to judge to be able to properly discern the truth of a particular matter.

The Greater burden actually lies upon the shoulders of those who judge. If done improperly or with malfeasance, the curse on a false judge takes on a greater eventual punishment.

I have witnessed this being the case of a Bishop who was a friend of mine. I witnessed a poor judgment call on his part and within a few weeks his family began falling apart.

Of course there were problems he had leading up to this that should have preempted him from serving as a Bishop but he chose to anyway and in the end paid the price of having mis judged another innocent man by not being worthy of the Spirit who imparts the ability of discernment for a Bishop as part of his calling as a judge.

So as far as how we should view excommunicated members? It depends on a lot of factors. If they are defiant and truly deserving of being removed for the purpose of sanctifying the Lord's house, do you think God would just sit there and let them hi jack a sacred meeting? I don't think so...He cleansed a Temple himself.

So why would a Bishop even allow such a thing unless he possessed the Spirit of Eli who turned a blind eye to the sins of his sons and allowed them to desecrate Holy things?

And those Holy things include truly righteous members who are being exposed to their defiant rants.

For those who have been excommunicated and are humble, excommunication is not intended to be viewed as alienation.

It's the proper way of relieving a person from being accountable under the covenant of membership or the Priesthood, who has committed a serious moral offense that causes that membership or Priesthood to become a curse and unbearable weight around the neck of a person God wants to heal.

It's like making the mistake of kicking the legs out from underneath a piano and it falling on you. What should you do? The piano was fine until that happened. Would you still prefer to try to play it's music while it is crushing your legs? Or would you rather try having it removed and taking some time off to rethink the dumb reasons for kicking it's legs out before trying to play again?

"They" are you and me. "They" have merely exercised a case of severely poor judgment which most times has a cure...Time. That's what excommunication is...A time out.

Permanently for some and only a certain amount of time for others. But should never be projected as alienation as is most off times inflicted upon those who go through this.

Just the simple word "them" implies that.

Never cause even a defiant excommunicated person to feel alienated. He has done that to himself. Just get some Priesthood ____ and tell them to hit the road and don't come back until you cool off!

You as a Bishop are obligated to get that monkey off the backs of the innocent who deserve better...Defend Them like a good Shepherd should! Not to mention profaning the Lord's Chapel...

And there are some who have been rejected unjustly. Yes, I say rejected if it is unjust judgment. If you don't believe that has occurred, you are either ignorant of the scriptures or you have created your own personal convenient interpretation of them.

Just as there are some innocent people in our prison system, so too have poor calls been made on the part of priesthood holders. And some of those calls are not just unworthily poor...some are calculatingly intentional...The worst kind of call a man holding the Priesthood can make whether it be as a Bishop, council member or Husband....You better not do it!

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Excommunicated Mormons - Page 4

A time out? Suspension of all Priesthood blessings, membership, temple covenants, wearing your garments, etc is merely for you a time out? I don't think so! It has ETERNAL consequences if the person does not repent.

Excommunicated Mormons Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

Name: Nick
Country:

Comments: ChicaSud, So is a time out. The whole idea is not to come out of time out until you have a change of heart. So you MAY remain there forever as well.