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Am I A Mormon Apostate?

I consider myself: I'm Active
Years a Member: Lifelong (Well, mostly )

Since there are those who might consider me on the road to apostasy, I thought that I might see if we can discuss just what apostasy is.

So, what does it mean to be apostate?

Is it reasonable to label someone "Apostate" And shun them, cast them out of the church, just because they believe differently than most?  Doesn't "Apostate" Really indicate a loss of faith, or falling away from the faith?

NightHawk

Apostate Mormon I Am

:spock: Nighthawk, you are something else... here is my answer:

In my opinion being apostate is the same as being anti-Christ. Now before everyone gets all riled up let me explain. By 'anti-Christ' I am not talking about the beast in Revelations or David and the Omen, simply put 'anti' is to be against. If you are against something of Christ then you are 'anti-Christ'. Let's look at an apostate in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 30:6 "But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year,
there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was
Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the
prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the
coming of Christ."

Notice the reason it says that 'man' was an anti-Christ, it was because he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets.

Lets look at another...

Alma 30:12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law
could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that
there should be no Christ...

So it seems to be apostate you need to...

1. Go against what the prophet has said
2. Preach it to the people

It also falls inline with current disciplinary action in the handbook for apostasy. If you need the exact text let me know.

Hope that answers your question.

Am I A Mormon Apostate? Studies Doctrine Mormon

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and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ."

Ok.  He preached against the prophecies about Christ.

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began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ...

Again, preached against Christ.

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1. Go against what the prophet has said 2. Preach it to the people

Now, I am not extremely well versed in logic, but I see a little bit of a disconnect here.

Both of the examples of anti-Christs you gave preached against Christ.  This goes right along with what I said in my first post here, that apostacy is a loss of faith.

However, your statement indicates that it is to disagree with anything that the prophet states, and to preach such.  So, if I disagree with President Hinckley's statement that "all is well in Zion", and I point out in the Book of Mormon where this statement is expressly condemned, then am I apostate?  (BTW, I am using this as an example.  I don't know what he was trying to express with that statement, and it doesn't bother me.  It does bother other people.)

From the way you worded it, consider the following scenario:
1.  I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Annointed One.  He is the Saviour and Redeemer of mankind.
2.  Only through His sacrifice, by obedience to the Gospel (faith, repentance, baptism by immersion, baptism of fire) can we be saved from death and hell.
3.  I believe that Joseph Smith was called as the Prophet to lead this dispensation.  He was a true prophet of God.
4.  I believe that the Book of Mormon is absolutely true, that it contains the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

(BTW, I really do believe all those things.  Following is the "what if" part of the scenario.)

5.  I then publicly say that I believe that the Church should not have built the new Conference Center, as I think the money should have been spent on providing housing and food for poor people in Sierra Leone.

Am I apostate?  By the way you worded your statement, it appears that way.

Now, the reason I bring this up is that I have relatives who are considered apostate, yet they have incredibly deep, powerful testimonies.

Also, I am disturbed by some of the things I see happening, some of the contradictions I see between what we teach and what the scriptures say.  I worry that I may be considered apostate, although my testimony of Jesus Christ grows stronger every day.  I don't buy into the "fundamentalist" ideas of Priesthood authority outside the Church, although they may have some valid points for discussion.  I don't promote the practice of polygamy, although I believe it is a true and vital principle.

So, this is why I want to discuss these points.  I am trying to get a clearer, more concise definition.

NightHawk

Apostate Mormon I Am

Nighthawk, I am afraid I do not have the time to entertain your delimas. My point in posting those scriptures was to show you that 'Christ' did not actually come, so it was not Christ's words they were arguing with... it was the prophet's. It does not matter if the actual words are about Christ, because speaking about part of the Gospel of Christ in a negative way or a way opposed to what the current Prophet has deemed correct is apostasy. Yes, the prophet is the key here. It is all really simple, if this is Christ's Church (which it is) then He will not allow the Prophet to lead you astray - so what is the problem? I see your mind is already closed on that concept though, but like I said I do not have the time for this... maybe someone else will come along and help you?

Apostate Mormon I Am

Nighthawk, you really do ask interesting and deep questions.  

I don't know what the official answer/definition is for apostate, but I do have an opinion.

I think if you preach against doctrine you are definately an apostate.  That to me doesn't necessarily mean if you share your views with others, but it depends upon how you share your views with others.  For example, it is perfectly fine with me, if you think the Church shouldn't have built the new conference center, but if you now try to convince people to not pay their tithing in protest, I would call you an apostate.

O.K.  So, now I have looked up the definition at dictionary.com and one of the definitions is "One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to which he before adhered..." and another is "not faithful to religion or party or cause n : a disloyal person who forsakes his cause or religion or political party or friend etc. [syn: deserter, renegade, recreant]"

With these definitions, I would say one could be called an apostate if they were to go on television - Larry King - for example, and in an interview express publicly that they don't think the money should have been spent to build the convention center, because that would seem disloyal to  me.  This could explain why someone writing a book that expresses things contrary to Church teachings could find themselves in trouble.

I think it is one thing to honestly question something, and honestly search for the truth and another to air your grievances publicly.  

When someone does something publicly that might cause others to question their faith and beliefs, I think this is when the question of apostate comes into play.

Am I A Mormon Apostate?

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Also, I am disturbed by some of the things I see happening, some of the contradictions I see between what we teach and what the scriptures say.

According to Ezra Taft Benson in his devotional given at BYU when he was President of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, entitled "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophets" the second one is this:

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The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works. President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: 'You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.' When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, 'Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.' Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,' said he, 'when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.'" (C[onference] R[eport], October 1897, pp. 18-19) (This quote taken from www.xmission.com/~country/authority/14_fund1.htm)

Therefore, if your concerns are related to changes you see happening in the Church that come about as teachings or revelations received from the Lord's called and ordained prophets, I see nothing about which we should be concerned.

Am I Mormon Apostate

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So, what does it mean to be apostate?

In my opinion it means to do something against what the Church considers Doctrine and speak out about our beliefs publicly. (teaching it).

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Is it reasonable to label someone "apostate" and shun them, cast them out of the church, just because they believe differently than most?  Doesn't "apostate" really indicate a loss of faith, or falling away from the faith?

Like I always say, the Church is like a 'club' there are rules and beliefs the Church itself stands for. We are the ones who join the 'club' not the 'club' to us. Therefore, if our thinking and actions goes against what the Church stands for we do not have place in there, basically because we cannot represent the Church in any way if our beliefs are different to the ones of the 'club'. Its our decision to leave the 'club' if our thinking is not i  hamony with what they teach, if we star talking to other members of the 'club' abour our beliefs and sometimes even talk against the 'club's leadership' then the institution doesn't have other option but remove us from the membership of such club. It happens in any institution and the Church is not the exception. Can a democrat member of the government think like a republican and expect to stay and hold the same position?.

Am I Mormon Apostate Mormon Doctrine Studies

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Like I always say, the Church is like a 'club' there are rules and beliefs the Church itself stands for. We are the ones who join the 'club' not the 'club' to us. Therefore, if our thinking and actions goes against what the Church stands for we do not have place in there, basically because we cannot represent the Church in any way if our beliefs are different to the ones of the 'club'.

I really like how you put it LDS.  This really helped me to understand why an apostate would be ex-communicated just based upon what they said vs. what they did.  Thanks.  

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Is it reasonable to label someone "apostate" and shun them, cast them out of the church, just because they believe differently than most?  Doesn't "apostate" really indicate a loss of faith, or falling away from the faith?

I think there is a difference between being an apostate and being inactive or less active.  You can lose your faith without actively preaching against it.  I was inactive for 12 ½ years.  During that time, I even joined another Church.  However, I never actually said anything bad about this Church.  The most I would say was "they are really nice people, who try to live their faith.  They just have it wrong."  In fact this only happened once when I was explaining that I had been a member of this Church to an in-law.

If I had become inactive, joined another Church, and then spoke out about this Church in a public forum, like some former members do with the lighthouse ministry in Utah, then I probably should have been labeled an apostate rather than inactive.  In addition, since I know longer accept the beliefs and rules of the "club" I should no longer be allowed membership.