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Am I A Mormon Apostate? - Page 2

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If I had become inactive, joined another Church, and then spoke out about this Church in a public forum, like some former members do with the lighthouse ministry in Utah, then I probably should have been labeled an apostate rather than inactive.  In addition, since I know longer accept the beliefs and rules of the "club" I should no longer be allowed membership.

Ok, I can accept this view, about apostacy.  I cannot accept the "club" idea.  That indicates that the Church is just a social organization.  It isn't.  It is the vehicle that God gave to help His children attain salvation and exaltation.  It is the vehicle by which the ordinances of the Priesthood are given to mankind.

I am NOT talking about Jerald and Sandra Tanner, nor about Ed Decker.  I am talking about people who still proclaim their testimonies of Jesus Christ, of the Restoration, of the Book of Mormon, and of Joseph Smith.  They see Isaiah 28, which says that the prophets and priests of Ephraim, in the last days, will be failing in their duties by teaching regurgitated doctrines, making changes to the doctrine to be more acceptable to the world, and practicing priestcraft.  They see where Brigham Young proclaimed and prophesied that if the Church ever became "acceptable" to the world, that would mean that the Church had gone into apostacy.

If the Church is a club, then fine.  We should definitely live by the telestial rules of exclusion.  

I'm sorry.  I have written this about five times, deleted large sections, rewritten them, and finally, I give up.

Perhaps I am on the road to apostacy.  If so, then it will be because I am seeking to follow Christ.  If the Spirit confirms to me that I must follow the Prophet, no matter what, then I will do so.  But if not, then I will accept whatever consequences come.  I wish you all well.

NightHawk

Apostate Mormon I Am

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I cannot accept the "club" idea.  That indicates that the Church is just a social organization.

Nighthawlk, I think you're smart enough to know that the example of the ''club' is only that, an example. It was NOT meant to be in the literal sense but a reminder that you're the one who must adapt to the Church NOT the Church to you.

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Perhaps I am on the road to apostacy.  If so, then it will be because I am seeking to follow Christ.

huh? how can you be going into the road of apostasy because you're seeing to follow Christ. It doesn't make any sense at all.

You seem to not understand how a person can have a totally different view about certain Church doctrine  and pretend the Church to just allow them membership!!! it doesn't make any sense! and I'm seeing it in the practical way. The common sense will say that this is NOT possible. How in the world can a person say they're LDS and at the same time their thinking is not in harmony with that the Church stands for? (whether may be right or not) how they can expect the Church to accept that?!.
Actually you started this thread asking about what an apostate is and I think you know the answer for it, maybe the answers given doesn't satisfy you but in my opinion if you're struggling with some Church issues then you perfectly know what to do, to worry about whether you're in the road of apostasy or not is not going to help. Mighty Prayer and fasting will help you with those issues.

Am I A Mormon Apostate? Studies Doctrine Mormon

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I think you're smart enough to know that the example of the ''club' is only that, an example. It was NOT meant to be in the literal sense but a reminder that you're the one who must adapt to the Church NOT the Church to you.

If I join a club, let's say it is the local Elks lodge.  I would join it because it is doing good work, living up to certain standards, and because it has a mission that I find admirable.  After I join it, I learn that the local lodge is not abiding by the history and written constitution of its organization.  I still admire it, and find its works good.  Why must I conform myself to its errant ways?  Wouldn't I want to, and be justified in, seeking to change it?

I don't want to change the Church.  I am not at all interested in "steadying the ark."  I don't think that I am the one "mighty and strong" spoken of in Isaiah and in the D&C.  I want to understand.  I want to reconcile the contradictions I see between the scriptures and the current practices / policies of the Church and culture.

I know several people who are seeking, to the absolute best of their ability, to follow Christ, yet who have been excommunicated for apostacy.

I know what MY definition of apostacy is, but it obviously isn't the same as many of the people here, nor of many of the people at church.

As I said before, it isn't about the anti-Mormon apostates.  It is about those who have sought out "further light and knowledge", received specific answers to specific questions, then are cast out because of it.  I personally know some of these people!

Yes, I am struggling with some issues.  I struggle with the very idea that Mormons condemn the Catholics for their "infallibility" ideas, then we hold an even MORE strict infallibility doctrine for our Prophet!

I am seeking resolution to these issues through study and prayer.  I thought that perhaps this forum was a place where I could discuss some of them, as discussion can really help clarify the issues and ideas.  Perhaps I was wrong.

Thanks for your patience, and your explanations.  Some of the discussion has been very helpful.

NightHawk

Page 2 Apostate Mormon I Am

I've been thinking more about my last post here, and I think I have gained a little more insight, at least into my own thinking.

The message I keep getting from people is "follow the Prophet, follow the Prophet, follow the Prophet."  The main reason this doesn't sit well with me is that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith frequently told the people to verify every one of their words with the Spirit.  As time has gone by, more recent prophets have urged us to verify their words.  Now, all I hear is "follow the Prophet."  Never, "verify his words."

What bothers me about this is that if we heard the same thing from the Catholics, we would scoff.  Actually, we do scoff at their doctrine of infallibility.  Here we have the message, "follow the Prophet, because the Prophet says to."  Isn't this circular reasoning?

I am perfectly willing to accept that I can be, and may be wrong.  I probably am wrong.

LDS_Forever has given me one scripture that indicates that the Prophet would never be wrong.  In context, I am not sure exactly what it is saying, but I am willing to accept that this might be the message.  At the same time, it appears to me that Isaiah is telling us that the leadership of Ephraim/Israel in the last days (the Church) will be led by men who have no visions, no spirit of prophecy.  I don't know if we are in this situation now, in fact, I believe fervently that we are NOT.

So, now I get to the crux of the matter.  If I simply follow the Prophet in all things, I am considered a good member of the Church, a good saint.  If I pray, and get an answer that I am not to follow him in a particular point of doctrine, as long as I am silent about it, I am probably ok, unless it is something obvious.  If I say anything about it, that I am bothered by what is happening, I am warned that I am close to apostacy.

If I pray, and receive an answer that I am NOT to follow the Prophet in many things, and I live by what I have received of the Spirit, then I am "apostate", a "cultist".  If I publicly say that we are to lean on the Spirit only, not on the arm of flesh, then I am also apostate.  In other words, if I, through my own study and faith, receive greater light and knowledge, it had better be exactly in line with what the rest of the Church believes, or I can show myself the door.  Of course, I am perfectly welcome to gain that greater light and knowledge, as long as I never hint to anyone, anywhere, that I have it.  Even if it is just a different understanding of certain scriptures.

Anyway, thank you all for your help.  You have certainly helped me to realize just what was bothering me.  I am not any closer to a resolution, not at the moment anyway.  But I know what I need to do to get that resolution.

NightHawk

Apostate Mormon I Am

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If I join a club, let's say it is the local Elks lodge.  I would join it because it is doing good work, living up to certain standards, and because it has a mission that I find admirable.  After I join it, I learn that the local lodge is not abiding by the history and written constitution of its organization.  I still admire it, and find its works good. Why must I conform myself to its errant ways?  Wouldn't I want to, and be justified in, seeking to change it?

That's the point, you don't have to conform yourself yo their 'errant ways'. Nobody forces you to do that.  The person has the choice to leave if the beliefs of the organization does not fit them whether they're wrong or right. No, you will not be justified in seeking to change it for a lot of obvious reasons but basically because in the example you're giving you're the one different, not the rest. No organization is going to 'change' because of one person.

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As I said before, it isn't about the anti-Mormon apostates.  It is about those who have sought out "further light and knowledge", received specific answers to specific questions, then are cast out because of it.  I personally know some of these people!

What are those specific answers and questions? that the Prophet is not really a True Prophet? that they can have more than 1 wife at the present time?  I'm just giving examples of things that are not according to what the Church stands for, therefore like I said before if somebody said that they received an answer on a particular issue like those, I'm not rejecting the fact that they got an answer...now the point is from who?.

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The message I keep getting from people is "follow the Prophet, follow the Prophet, follow the Prophet."  The main reason this doesn't sit well with me is that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith frequently told the people to verify every one of their words with the Spirit.  As time has gone by, more recent prophets have urged us to verify their words.  Now, all I hear is "follow the Prophet."  Never, "verify his words."

I understand your point Nighthawlk, like I said before there is nothing wrong in asking the Father whether a revelation from the Prophet is true or not, if that makes you feel good. We move by faith my brother, this is what we do...we move and believe by faith only. We will only know when we are face to face with Heavenly Father in the other side of the veil. That's why when I share my testimony I say 'I believe the Church is true, I believe Jesus is the Christ' how can I possible 'know'?. Brigham Young taught that we will only 'know' when we are with the Father face to face, for now, we just do it through Faith. This whole issue is more simple than you think Nighthawlk. Prophets are human beings who commit mistakes and sin also. They're not God. I have my personal view on the matter that I already shared it here but to make the point clear there are lots of Prophets in the old testament who committed mistakes and sin and it didn't mean they were less prophets of God because of that. The only perfect man who ever walked this Earth was Christ. Look at Moses for instance, he was such a humble guy when he was called by God and after he became prideful in their own wisdom thinking he had the power and he did not acknowledge God on this....now...did the jews make it to the Promise land? yes they did....with or without him, doesn't matter. What Im trying to show is that the work of the Lord will always move forward and he uses us as instruments on his hands to accomplish those goals. Therefore, if a Prophet is leading the Church astray, don't have a doubt, God will remove him from that position!

Am I A Mormon Apostate?

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I am seeking resolution to these issues through study and prayer.  I thought that perhaps this forum was a place where I could discuss some of them, as discussion can really help clarify the issues and ideas.  Perhaps I was wrong.

Nighthawk, I think this forum is a place where you can discuss the issues you are struggling with as well as continue to study and pray.  

Just because someone doesn't agree with your position doesn't mean it can't be discussed.  Isn't that what discussion is all about?   However, in my opinion, it is unlikely you will get your answers here, that is more likely to come through prayer rather than discussion on the internet.

I have enjoyed your thoughts and discussion and hope you will continue to share on this forum.

Am I Mormon Apostate - Page 2

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Just because someone doesn't agree with your position doesn't mean it can't be discussed.

AMEN to that!

I am glad that someone else was able to post that, since I say it so often but the 'offended' never seem to digest it. I think the major problem is that many use forums such as these to not look for answers, but to look for people that agree with them, When they do not find a subject or theme going their way they do one of four things (this is from experience);

a. Insult the forum user(s)
b. Leave and never post
c. Ask for their account to be deleted
d, Claim that someone is insulting them because they are not in agreement with their thought.

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However, in my opinion, it is unlikely you will get your answers here,

Again, well put, I did not want to say it because coming from me it would sound like I am asking the person to leave, but it is true. This forum promotes positivity in the study of the truths of the Gospel. When you bring what seems to be 'apostate' thoughts here and then expect others to agree with this then you are really in the wrong place.

Am I Mormon Apostate Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

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Nighthawk, I think this forum is a place where you can discuss the issues you are struggling with as well as continue to study and pray.   Just because someone doesn't agree with your position doesn't mean it can't be discussed.  Isn't that what discussion is all about?   However, in my opinion, it is unlikely you will get your answers here, that is more likely to come through prayer rather than discussion on the internet. I have enjoyed your thoughts and discussion and hope you will continue to share on this forum.

Thanks for the support.  I am not looking for agreement, necessarily, but rather some in-depth discussion.

Essentially, I was on the verge of just ignoring the forum.

The problem that I see is that I am accused of being close-minded, but I get the same answers from everyone.  I quote scriptures, discourses by Prophets and Apostles, as well as my own opinion.  I just get the same answers again.  How about some depth to the discussion?

Now, on some mailing lists I read, there are people who really have some depth to their knowledge, but they are very strong in their opinions about the Church, that the Church is in apostacy now.  They have very good arguments, both from scripture and from modern discourses.  I don't participate much there, because they just keep repeating all the same arguments over and over.  They never ask questions.

Now, I will repeat myself.  I DO believe that President Hinckley is the man that the Lord wants to be the mortal leader of His Church.  I am just very disturbed by some of the contradictions that I see between what Joseph Smith and the other early leaders taught, and what is currently the practice and policy of the Church.

NightHawk