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Abuse - Page 3

[quote]
Who brought you to that 'awareness'? For one thing no man is knowledgeable unto himself. There must have been a school of thought that caused you to interpret Paul's scriptures in that 'tone'. All the Word is subject to interpretation by one in authority. It is by direct revelation we understand the meaning of what God's prophet is saying, this is called, 'The Spirit of Prophecy'. Now, LDS has given you some quotes from a modern day prophet which clearly state that a man cannot use 'force' in a relationship, especially in intamacy. Paul's statement is based on the righteousness of the husband, you will learn more of that when you get to the temple.[/quote]

I have not advocated the use of 'force', I only advocate the scriptural point of view that we each must remain in submission one to the other. The part of Paul's lecture to the Ephesians regarding sexual due in a relationship is misunderstood by too many both in the church and in the world. The Standpoint of Women not needing to be in submission is a lie. However those who do not view the anverse of it are also living a lie, Husbands need to be in submission to their wives also. We are counsleled to continue being in subjection one to another. Then to expound on it The Apostle says Wives be in subjection to your husbands, and Husbands love your wives even as Christ loves the church. It is pretty plain to see that there is no unrighteous dominion here, if there were then the marriage is void as the person wielding this dominion has made the covenant of no effect.

Why is it so hard for people who call themselves Christians to accept that they are the slaves of Christ, and that as such they are expected to live and act in a certain way. Why is it so hard to accept that any should be i0n authority over another? When a Husband is judged by Almighty God he will not only be judged for himself but also for his wife (wives) and child(ren) When a wife stands in judgment she wis judged for Herself and for her children. It must be a modern spririt that says I am my own person, I will do as I please, I have my agency, no one can tell me what to do. This is a wrong spirit. We are to remain in su9bjection to many... Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, our church leaders and many others... in the home the Husband is the ultimate authority, what he says goes period, He will be judged on how he wields this authority and how good or bad a steward He is.

Wives are not sub-serviant, but rather servants, they are so by nature as well as by station. I say this not to demean women, but rather to show their importance. It is written that he who would be greatest among you should be the servant of all, women do this naturaly, men do not - it is only in these latter days when we have seen women trying to be men that this has become an issue. Men are so terrible at being servants that they had to be given the priesthood in order to learn how to serve one another.

My Grandfather used to tell me, that if any man wished to be treated as a King in his home, first he must treat the wife as a Queen. This is not in contradiction to these scriptures, for only he who is fit to serve is fit to truly rule. Unless we accept our positions as servants to eachother we will continue having a problem with violence in the home.

Husbands are given the sacred role as the head of the household. They are the priest of the home. They are the final authority in the home. For right or for wrong it is their dominion. Righteous Husbands heed the counsle of Paul and Love their wives as Christ Loves the Church. Christ never struck the church, Christ never belittled the church, Christ often prayed for the church, Christ often uplifted the church, Christ asked much of the church that it was not wont to do - and it did it anyways. Men who follow this example and seek the spirit are righteous Husbands and should be commended for their stewardship.

Men who wield unrighteous dominion over their families or otherwise use violence are no more husbands than they are priesthood holders, for if these Men follow this course they will lose the spirit, and if they remain unrepentant then Amen to their Priesthood. Wives are refered to as the "like the church" they should remove themselves from persecution where possible, often the righteous have been called out of terrible situations.

The Spirit has borne witness to me that these things I speak are true, no man has spoken them to me. If you doubt my words and the scriptures wich on many account tell the members of the church to be the servants of all then perhaps you need to re-evaluate you beliefs.

Continued ...

Abuse

... Coninued

[quote]Seems like you have issues with the Prophet's statement then. I think you are playing with the word 'submit'. Submission can be interrpreted to mean many things, in the Gospel it is a form of meekness, for an abuser it is a form of rule.[/quote]

I believe a CAREFUL review of what I have written will reveal that I am indead correctly interpreting the term

[quote]In addition to this, a recent review of the Church Handbook of Instructions point to the fact that the Church is intolerable of abuse inside or outside of marriage, wether it be to spouce or children, wether it be sexual or not.[/quote]

Violence in general should be considered intolerable.

[quote]I believe if you have a hard time understanding this then you may need to consult with your Bishop and/or Stake President as this an issue of a personal nature and which can affect future relations you may have with your spouse.[/quote]

I have no problems with this issue, it is an issue that apparently from what I can understand where the church (at least those who have responded to this) are in disagreement with the Scriptures and the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[quote]"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 88-89.)[/quote]

Perhaps I am being misunderstood, this has been known to happen . As I have said already, Husbands and wives are commanded to submit to eachother. In this submission they become partners. When there is a dispute the Husband must make the final decision by the spirit as he is accountable.

In a Marriage that is based on covenants there can be no Rape of the spouse for both willingly give their bodies one to the other except in times of illness, exhaustion or when mutually agreed upon for prayer.

In the instance of abuse in the home, the wife is counseled to leave the home and seek help for her and her children, as they are her responibility. If the abuse is of a physical nature she may seek legal assistance in dealing with it, and wether or not the man is a member of the church she should get her Bishop involved. The man will be judged by the Father. Though more than once a faithfull, submisive wife has brought her husband to the truth by her actions without saying one word...

Think not that because the woman is to be in submision to the man that she is inferior, any more than Jesus was inferior to the disciples when he washed their feet or the Apostles were inferior to eachother. For The man is not without the woman in the Lord, neither is the woman without the man in the Lord;  no man can be saved and exalted in the kingdom of God without the woman, and no woman can reach the perfection and exaltation in the kingdom of God alone.  [God] made man in his own image and likeness male and female, and in their creation it was designed that they should be united together in sacred bonds of marriage, and one is not perfect without the other. (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1939, p. 272.)

Remember also that Love is the start of submition and that we are taught The gospel of Jesus Christ is the law of love, and love of God with the whole heart and mind is the greatest commandment, and the next is like unto it: love thy neighbor as thyself. This should be remembered in the marriage relation, for, while it is said that the desires of the woman shall be to her husband, and he shall rule over her, it is intended that that rule shall be in love and not in tyranny. God never rules tyrannically, except when men so corrupt themselves that they are unfit to live. (Gospel Doctrine, p. 274.)

So we can see that the man does rule over the woman, though I will note that it does not say "Lord over"

Now I will reiterate. In a marriage there can be no rape. Wives continue in subition to your husbands for this is right in the sight of the Lord. Husbands, continue to love your wife even as you love your own body, never does a man abuse his own flesh, but rather doth he nourish it. To each of you male and female married or single continue in servitude to your fellow worker, assisting them as you are able and encouraging them as you may. If you or someone you know is in a situation of abuse get out or help them gain the courage to get out. Continue to love the wrongdoer, but hate their wrong, pray for them and report them to the authorities.

Where love is there is no pain. Where love is there is only gain. Where love is tears are stopped. Where love is so is God. - God is Love.

[offtopic]JB on a personal note I know of the temple ceremony, I can quote it as well as one who has received their endowments and better than most. I have seen the temple, been to the temple and am well aware of all these sacred things. Also, the only time I have issue with the words of the Prophet are when they contradict the teachings in our scriptures. I had no issue with these sayings only in the context they were used. As for seeking the counsle of my Bishop and/or Stake President, there is not that they can tell me that I already know not, especially about marriage. I am currently in the throws of a divorce, this is because my wife left me three years ago on the condition that she would quit doing drugs and sleeping around when I quit worshiping God. I was unable to condone the use of illegal drugs or her infidelity any longer so she left me. After the breakup many people thought that either we had moved or I had killed her because it was quiet in the neighborhood again.[/offtopic]

Abuse Studies Doctrine Mormon

Wanlorn, I think you are a confusing the issue, you are playing with words and blending various topics, your question was concerning 'martial rape', you asked how that is possible in marriage, we explained that being abusive where one spouse forces themselves on their mate against the will of the spouse is abuse. It is abuse because, even though they are married, it does not give the man a right to physically force a woman to have intamacy with him. There is a direct relationship between having 'sex' and 'love'. If you have to force someone into 'love' with you then that is an impossibility, even in marriage. Anyone that believes so is sick! Again, I encourage you to seek the help of leaders and not frustrate this thread.  You claim to already know more than they can give you, well I think a bit of humilty needs to be exercised here since your leaders cn guide you spiritually.
[offtopic]As for your comment about the endowment and other sacred ordinances I will remind you that to read about something and get the Spirit of it in the Temple of God is two different things. The temple is symbolic and therefore has to be understood in terms of the symbolism and not words of the net. You should leave those things be until you are in the temple of God.[/offtopic]

Page 3 Abuse

I have to agree with LDS_Forever....
I will say this My body belongs to me! and I for sure dont want  my husband's body cause I happen to like mine........     anyways... NO one should be forced to have marital acts. Submitting does that mean that....  I believe in being equal partners.. Takes TWO to make things work. I won't just let my husband do what he wants when he wants with me.  It takes tenderness. caring.... showing each you care.....   I know this is under the abuse section but this is considered abuse if  your forced to do something against your will. and YES a spouse can be raped. When a spouse says no.. as in TOO TIRED.. does that mean too bad Im gonna do what I want? NO it does not. Respect  each others feelings..
LOOK on lds.org in the Ensign on this topic
you will be amazed at what you will find.      

Thanks for listening
a Wife,
Sheila

Abuse

I was really scared to read this thread.  It hits really too close to home.  Now I'm sort of sick to my stomach.

[quote]Perhaps I am being misunderstood, this has been known to happen . As I have said already, Husbands and wives are commanded to submit to eachother. In this submission they become partners. When there is a dispute the Husband must make the final decision by the spirit as he is accountable.  

In a Marriage that is based on covenants there can be no Rape of the spouse for both willingly give their bodies one to the other except in times of illness, exhaustion or when mutually agreed upon for prayer. [/quote]


The idea that there are men in the church who believe that a wife "submitting to the husband in all things" excuses rape within marriage makes me ill.

Wanlorn.  You don't understand the concept of rape.  You have gone so far off into left field --  you have no idea what you are talking about.

You are not being misunderstood -- I understand you perfectly.

You are misunderstanding the entire subject.

Take JB's advice, print out this entire thread, take it to your bishop or stake president, and seek their wise counsel.   Fast and pray for true understanding.

Roz (who regrets reading any of this, will have nightmares for a week, and will not return to this thread)

Abuse

[quote]Roz (who regrets reading any of this, will have nightmares for a week, and will not return to this thread) [/quote]

I'm sorry you felt that way Roz, I know the subject is very touchy for you. All I can say is that not everybody has the same opinion about one subject but until we are in the shoes of somebody else who suffered abuse of any kind, then what we do only is 'talk'. Thanks for your inputs.
Lots of hugs,
Sol

Abuse - Page 3

[center] I'm Less Active [/center][table] [tr][td] Years a Member: [/td][td] 40 [/td][/tr] [tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr] [/table]
I have been working in Child Protection and Family Crisis now for over 9 years.  I have to agree with you that physical abuse is not the only abuse.  Arguably the worst kind of abuse is emotional...no one sees the scars or the hurt, which is often more damaging.  The other kind of abuse is neglect....I have worked in remote localities and communities and have seen at first hand children who don't get enough to eat or the basic needs met.

Abuse Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

Welcome James, based on your work you should give us a lot of helpful tips on helping others (ourselves) if they are being abused.
[offtopic]Please update your profile by clicking on 'Profile' on the top menu. Thanks.[/offtopic]