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Going To The Bishop

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I was just wondering what you all think about going to the bishop with information you might have on another member.  When do you think it's appropriate?  When do you think that it's not appropriate?

The scriptures say that we are to be our brother's keeper, but does this mean that it's our place to alert the bishop anytime we see a member doing or saying something they shouldn't be doing?  Does it depend on what they are doing, or on their calling, or on something else?  Is it really any of our business, or is this within the realm of being our brother's keeper?

Bishop To Going

[quote]I was just wondering what you all think about going to the bishop with information you might have on another member.  When do you think it's appropriate?  When do you think that it's not appropriate?[/quote]

Appropiate: when somebody has confessed you or tell you something they have done that may be putting somebody in danger (for example: an abuser telling you that he/she is abusing somebody else), when they tell you something they have done that is jeopardazing their membership status in the Church, when you see with your own eyes a member doing something that goes against our principles (cheating, stealing, etc).

Not Appropiate:  Go to the bishop with a lie just to deceive him because you may not like a brother or a sister in particular.

[quote]The scriptures say that we are to be our brother's keeper, but does this mean that it's our place to alert the bishop anytime we see a member doing or saying something they shouldn't be doing?  Does it depend on what they are doing, or on their calling, or on something else?  Is it really any of our business, or is this within the realm of being our brother's keeper? [/quote]

Yes, we are our brother's keepers and is our responsibility to see and care about them. Is not like you have to go and tell the bishop 'You know, sister such and such eats too much meat and that goes against the word of wisdom' we are talking about serious issues like fornication, adultery, abuse, stealing, abortion, etc things that will definetly compromise their Church membership. It doesn't depend on the calling at all! if you see your Stake President doing something he's not supposed to do, it is your responsibility to let the Church leaders know about it...I think is also a moral responsibility to do this. I can speak plainly about it because I have been in the situation before that I had to talk to my leaders when people came to confess me things that was jeopardazing their Church status and because I am not a hypocrite I cannot see somebody taking the Sacrament and I know this person commited a very serious sin, it is my duty to let the leaders know about it and remember that Church discipline in the Church is to help the brother or sister in trouble, not to condemn him or judge him but to help him. Hope it helps

Going To The Bishop Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]
I think is also a moral responsibility to do this. I can speak plainly about it because I have been in the situation before that I had to talk to my leaders when people came to confess me things that was jeopardazing their Church status and because I am not a hypocrite I cannot see somebody taking the Sacrament and I know this person commited a very serious sin, it is my duty to let the leaders know about it and remember that Church discipline in the Church is to help the brother or sister in trouble, not to condemn him or judge him but to help him. Hope it helps [/quote]

If you saw someone doing something that goes against church teachings (we'll assume it's something serious and not trivial), would you first confront them with your knowledge or would you just go directly to the bishop?  

What if the person that you saw doing something, or heard of doing something seriously wrong was a youth in the church... would you go to the youth's parents and inform them first or would you go directly to the bishop?

What if you heard someone saying that they believed in things which went against church teachings... same questions, confront them first or go to the bishop?

What about on forums like this and others.  If someone were to post something that shows they are in danger of apostasy, or which goes against church teachings, or that shows that they are doing something against church teachings.... would you confront them and encourage them to go to their bishop or would you try to find out where they live and go to an authority in their area?

In reference to the above question regarding postings to public forums, the reason I ask about this is because this did happen on another list I was on.  A member of that list posted a few things which could be taken as anti beliefs.  This person works for the church.  Another member of the list knew that this person worked for the church and so they made copies of the person's messages and turned them into his superiors.  Action was taken and the person, in order to save his job with the church, is no longer on that list.  Do you think this was appropriate?  Just how far do we take being our brother's keeper?

I'm only asking these questions because I'm a real fence sitter on this issue.  On the one hand I can see your point about alerting the bishop for the person's sake, but on the other hand I can see where it's really none of my business to be checking up on others in the ward and making sure that they are doing what they are supposed to do.  I mean, what if you go to the bishop and find that the person already has been to the bishop about the issue and is trying to work through it?

Now, when it comes to sustaining people for callings... if someone is being called to a position within the church and you  know a good reason that they shouldn't be called to that position, then I have been taught that it is your responsibility to raise your hand to the negative in sustaining that person and then go talk to the bishop about why you couldn't sustain that person.  I'm sure it has better be a really good reason that you can't sustain that person and not just some trivial reason like you don't like them, but if you consider it serious enough than it is your place to not sustain them and then explain to the bishop why.  I've heard of this happening, in fact.

But then I wonder.... does that then make it appropriate when your sustaining vote is not being asked for.

Oh, yes... I can also see where it would be extremely appropriate if someone were doing something that could hurt another... then I probably would go to the bishop.  Such as in the case of child abuse.  But then, as I think about it... if what they were doing was illegal and especially if it was harming another like in the case of child abuse, I'd probably turn them into the legal authorities first.  Then the bishop would find out when the legal processes begin to take place.

Bishop To Going

This was raised on another thread. I will say what I would do in the circumstances you mentioned:

1. First of all you going to the Bishop with information is not the FIRST measure, it is best to advise the individual to go to the Bishop, if the person does not want to then simply say you want to let the Bishop know that he needs to talk with the person and nothing more. I see that you keep wanting to jump to telling the Bishop exactly everything the person is doing, opportunity should be given to the person to confess.

2. If the transgression is very serious (such as abuse) and the person does not go to the Bishop then you need to take action... go to the Bishop and say, "Bishop there are some serious situations within the 'X' family that need urgent attention, please visit them right away as people are suffering", he should get the drift.

3. It is important to realize that  we should not put ourselves under any obligation to keep secrets by promising not to tell anyone about the dark secrets that someone is saying, in fact, you should immediately suggest to the person to seek the Bishop's help. I have found most people putting themselves under this kind of restriction and then they feel 'guilty' of telling the Bishop.

4. As for the net that is interesting, now I cannot answer for other forums, but it has happened here... this is what I do as the administrator... I try to understand the person's point of view to find out if it is really a belief against the Church, a struggling testimony, or personal opinion (reflection of thought).  Then I look for trends, is the person constantly questioning basic truths? If so the user has intentions already of disrupting the forum and I would ask them to stop since this forum is for positive discussion only. As far as researching who they are I think that is an impossibility on the net, since everyone is hidden really. If it is someone I know then see #1 and #2 above. Otherwise I would just counsel them to seek the help of the Bishop.

Bishop To Going

I worked for a man not long ago who had a very responsible, high position in the local church.  He was beginning to behave in the office in a way that would be interpreted as sexual harrassment.  While I was deciding whether or not to discuss this with my bishop, after a period of several weeks, the man died.

After his death, while I was helping the family close up the business, I discovered pornography in his office, and all over his computer.  It was awful.  I cleaned it all up, and wiped his computer clean of that filth.  I didn't want his sweet wife and children to be hurt by any of that, and have to live with that memory for the rest of their lives (like I will have to...).

Now, should I have spoken with a church leader when I first realized a problem with this man?  Do you think he would have been in a state of repentance when he died?  Did I deny him that opportunity?  Would that have helped him?

Did I do the right thing or the wrong thing in cleaning up after him, after his death?  Was experiencing the trial of his sin something his family should have had an opportunity to live through, and grow from??  Did I deny them that?  It's certainly been a challenge for me, and I was just an employee for a couple of months, I didn't know him very well.  I can't imagine what it might have meant to his family.

I'm still in close contact with his widow.  We are in the same ward, and we've become friends.  I'm doing my best to forgive him for her sake (and mine), and to pray for him.

Should I have taken any of it to the bishop?  I've only ever discussed it with one other person (my sister), to ask for advice.  I'm just curious what you all might have done.

Roz

(Maybe this should be a different thread, JB?)

Going To The Bishop

Farseer, well really it would have depended on how I felt at the time. If I were a woman and this person were 'making moves' I would immediately confront them. If it stopped then that is it, if it continued then for sure the higher ups will hear about it.

In the case of not telling his family (now this is JUST MY OPINION based on the picture you built) I would not tell them (his family) either, what difference would it make now that he is dead? If he were living I would let the leaders of the Church tell his family, not me. He is closer to judgement than ever before, nothing we can do now, and telling them would only bring bad feelings and have a long lasting efect on his children. So I think you did the right thing.

Going To Bishop

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[quote]
Now, should I have spoken with a church leader when I first realized a problem with this man?  Do you think he would have been in a state of repentance when he died?  Did I deny him that opportunity?  Would that have helped him?[/quote]

First off, I think you did the right thing, FarSeer, in not telling the man's family about what you found in his office and on his computer.  I agree with JB when he says what difference does it make.

The rest of it is quite a dilemma, though.  Would the man be truly repentant if he had to go to the bishop about it only because he was "caught", or would he just act repentant because he was "caught"?

I guess I've just been taught all my life that "tattling" on others is not a good thing.  I also have the philosophy in my life that I'm busy enough keeping myself in line without having to worry about whether or not everyone else is doing the right thing.

I've known of leaders who drink coffee.  This isn't following the WOW.  Is that something to bring to the attention of the bishop (even if I do it the way JB suggests and just hint that there may be a problem).  What if I know that a member is stealing from his bosses at work?  

I guess this is one of the main questions to be answered:  Just what behavior is reportable?  How serious does the transgression have to be?

[offtopic]As for privacy on the internet, there really is no such thing.  It's really not all that hard to find out about the people on the internet.  Email addresses are public information and easily obtainable, especially on boards and in email lists and a person can go on from there.[/offtopic]

Going To Bishop Mormon Doctrine Studies

Melodi, first of all let me tell you I was wrong. Actually the first thing to do like JB said is encourage the transgressor to confess the bishop and not tell the bishop the sin itself bur rather to encourage the person to do it, if the person doesn't do it then you have to tell the Bishop that this brother or sister has some issues and that he needs to speak urgently with him/her. That's the appropiate way to do it really. Now, I answered differently before because I was caught by the heat of the moment I suppose : there is a right way to do things but not always works fine. I had to let my leaders know about a sister and a brother who were doing really bad stuff and I know the sister didn't feel comfortable with it which I can understand but after all, the brother was in a leadership position...I just could not stand there and cover my eyes, my mouth and ears and not say anything...I had to! I would feel terrible if I didn't, I would feel like they were mocking God, the wife, the Church, everybody! just awful!

[quote]If you saw someone doing something that goes against church teachings (we'll assume it's something serious and not trivial), would you first confront them with your knowledge or would you just go directly to the bishop?[/quote]

Definetly I would confront them as like JB said counsel them to talk with the Bishop if they don't do it, then I would.

[quote]  What if the person that you saw doing something, or heard of doing something seriously wrong was a youth in the church... would you go to the youth's parents and inform them first or would you go directly to the bishop? [/quote]

This is such a tricky question to answer because I know of parents who you cannot tell them anything about their kids : and they will blame you for life for letting them know about something about their children...they prefer to deny it and live in a fantasy world : I really do not know what I would do in this case, I guess it depends how well I know the parents and how receptive they may be.

[quote]What if you heard someone saying that they believed in things which went against church teachings... same questions, confront them first or go to the bishop? [/quote]

I would definetly talk with the person, calmly, find out more their thoughts, their beliefs, etc, try to help them. Now, if they get up in the Church and start teaching false doctrine in a class then the leaders present are the ones who should make the move.

[quote]What about on forums like this and others.  If someone were to post something that shows they are in danger of apostasy, or which goes against church teachings, or that shows that they are doing something against church teachings.... would you confront them and encourage them to go to their bishop or would you try to find out where they live and go to an authority in their area?

In reference to the above question regarding postings to public forums, the reason I ask about this is because this did happen on another list I was on.  A member of that list posted a few things which could be taken as anti beliefs.  This person works for the church.  Another member of the list knew that this person worked for the church and so they made copies of the person's messages and turned them into his superiors.  Action was taken and the person, in order to save his job with the church, is no longer on that list.  Do you think this was appropriate?  Just how far do we take being our brother's keeper? [/quote]

I think in this case whoever reported this to his superior was not acting really as a brother's keeper but out of anger, and frustration of having this guy talking bad about the Church and stuff and at the same time using the Church to make a living every month, sad to say, there are plenty of them out there. Like I always say somebody cannot get so emotional about forums, internet lists and all that, if the guy is an anti-mormon and spread bad vibes just ignore it! but the fact that LDS members fight over and over with this kind of people make them look more powerful and popular and then out of anger and contention they go and report to the superiors. I will not even waste a minute with a guy like that. This happens a lot in web sites where there is not good moderators or admininistrators or they only care about web site traffic rather than the content of the site and keeping it in a good Spirit.

[quote]Now, when it comes to sustaining people for callings... if someone is being called to a position within the church and you  know a good reason that they shouldn't be called to that position, then I have been taught that it is your responsibility to raise your hand to the negative in sustaining that person and then go talk to the bishop about why you couldn't sustain that person.  I'm sure it has better be a really good reason that you can't sustain that person and not just some trivial reason like you don't like them, but if you consider it serious enough than it is your place to not sustain them and then explain to the bishop why.  I've heard of this happening, in fact.

But then I wonder.... does that then make it appropriate when your sustaining vote is not being asked for. [/quote]

I didn't understand the last statement. 'DOes that then make it appropiate when you sustaining vote is not being asked for?' what you mean? why your vote will not being asked for?.

Farseer, thanks for your post.

I would do exactly what you did. I will not let the family know about it. It really doesn't matter, plus if you do, what are you gaining from it? the guy doesn't have a chance to explain himself since he's dead. He will have a chance to do it in the next life when he gets reunited with his family. You definely did the right thing.

[quote]I've known of leaders who drink coffee.  This isn't following the WOW.  Is that something to bring to the attention of the bishop (even if I do it the way JB suggests and just hint that there may be a problem).  What if I know that a member is stealing from his bosses at work?  

I guess this is one of the main questions to be answered:  Just what behavior is reportable?  How serious does the transgression have to be? [/quote]

Well, this elders are supposed also to have Temple Recommends interviews where there is a Word of Wisdom question of worthiness. This is between God and the individual and his honesty about it.  Again, you should always encourage the brother to talk to the Bishop about their issues more when there are serious issues like stealing, fornication, adultery, abuse, etc. If they don't, then you should talk to the Bishop and tell him that such and such brother have some issues to deal with and that he needs to talk to him. You don't have to give more details than that. In my opinion, the trangression must be serious, if not, you may want to help the brother or sister to work it out on his own by reading the scriptures together or making sure he/she has good home and visiting teachers to help.