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World Governments & Politics - An LDS view? - Page 2

*Steps in the room as quietly as possible in case someone has a nuke armed*
Based on this point of view Brian I would like to see how you would respond to the thread in the General topics section called, "Bin Laden - Friend or Foe" here is an easy link for you:
https://www.bordeglobal.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...;num=1034613632

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LDS Forver wrote:

"I don't want to sound rude, but to make a comparison between Pres. Bush and Captain Moroni is almost comical, come on, do you really think that?. "

The answer is yes.  President Bush never intitiated an attack on anyone to consider him a warmonger.  On the other hand though, he will not stand for anyone being attacked now.  He was very clear (much like Captain Moroni) that he we were going to go after terrorist and the nations that upheld terrorism and make them accountable.  President Hinkely has also compared the war on terrorism to Captian Moroni's case:

"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty (see Alma 48:10)."

As far as the United States involvement in Afganistan, the truth of the matter is George W. Bush was working on a way to take out Osama Bin Ladin, of course what he was left to work with was the remains of the twisted weak military that Bill Clinton turned our military into during his administration.

To answer your question as to why the United States did not do this or that etc before Septemeber 11 there is one simple answer that I can give and that answer is Bill Clinton.  

"BUT do you remember that Iraq ALLOWED the UN to enter the country and they DID in fact enter and they didn't find anything that what the report says!... "

I remeber that we beat the tar out of Iraq and told them what the terms of surrender were, they did not graciously just invite the UN in and while the inspectors were in they were blocked from going to various sites.  In fact the whole time that Iraq did let the UN in was to play the propoganda game which obviously worked on you, what you don't understand is that they stopped weapons inspectors from going places.  This even happened a year ago on a 60 minutes interview, the Iraqies told the interviewer that she could go visit various suspected sites and then when she went to visit them they told her she could not go.  The UN inspectors did in fact find Iraq with weapons that they were not suppose to have, and the UN did not leave just because they felt the job was done, they were kicked out.  Of course we did nothing at the time (or should I say Bill Clinton did nothing at the time) because he was he was having too much fun with the ladies, of course when he did finally do something it was more as a propoganda tool to get the Citazens of the United States to stop thinking about his impeachment in the House of Representatives.

We have not made any effort to just attack Iraq, if you pay attention to the news just today a resolution passed that tells Iraq that they have to let the inspectors back in or face serious consequences.  Of course we know that we are going to attack Iraq because Iraq (or may I be more honest and say the dictator Saddam) won't keep promises, never have and never will.

"I don't know Brian, I just can tell you this. To believe that Bush is doing all this to just  HELP people, is a very naive thinking. Any president of ANY country do things based on interests, money, oil, security etc."

I don't see anything wrong with security.  President Bush is not a president of any other nation and I am aware that most governments are corrupt to the core but even in my critical remarks of Clinton I would not go so far as to say he was as bad as most leaders in other countries.  President Bush despite the propoganda that he only cares about Iraqi oil has made it plain that he wants the United States to be engergy independent of other nations especially from mid east oil.  The reason we even use oil from the mid east now is because the democrats want to drive cars but they don't want us to drill our own oil.

Some other things said by the prophet (to avoid myself from getting entirely nuked)

"You are acutely aware of the events of September 11, less than a month ago. Out of that vicious and ugly attack we are plunged into a state of war. It is the first war of the 21st century. The last century has been described as the most war-torn in human history. Now we are off on another dangerous undertaking, the unfolding of which and the end thereof we do not know. For the first time since we became a nation, the United States has been seriously attacked on its mainland soil. But this was not an attack on the United States alone. It was an attack on men and nations of goodwill everywhere. It was well planned, boldly executed, and the results were disastrous. It is estimated that more than 5,000 innocent people died. Among these were many from other nations. It was cruel and cunning, an act of consummate evil."

"Recently, in company with a few national religious leaders, I was invited to the White House to meet with the president. In talking to us he was frank and straightforward."

"That same evening he spoke to the Congress and the nation in unmistakable language concerning the resolve of America and its friends to hunt down the terrorists who were responsible for the planning of this terrible thing and any who harbored such."

"Now we are at war. Great forces have been mobilized and will continue to be. Political alliances are being forged. We do not know how long this conflict will last. We do not know what it will cost in lives and treasure. We do not know the manner in which it will be carried out. It could impact the work of the Church in various ways."

"Our national economy has been made to suffer. It was already in trouble, and this has compounded the problem. Many are losing their employment. Among our own people, this could affect welfare needs and also the tithing of the Church. It could affect our missionary program."

"We are now a global organization. We have members in more than 150 nations. Administering this vast worldwide program could conceivably become more difficult."

"Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation. The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions. This is not a matter of Christian against Muslim. I am pleased that food is being dropped to the hungry people of a targeted nation. We value our Muslim neighbors across the world and hope that those who live by the tenets of their faith will not suffer. I ask particularly that our own people do not become a party in any way to the persecution of the innocent. Rather, let us be friendly and helpful, protective and supportive. It is the terrorist organizations that must be ferreted out and brought down."

"We of this Church know something of such groups. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation."

This was said in the October Conference 2002 Sunday Morning session.

The issue I take with you the most though is this statement:

"The USA? well...having Bush as a President who is known to like 'blood' I will not be amazed... "

In my opinion it is bias and comes to the point of bearing false witness agianst George W. Bush, and in my comparing of Bush to Moroni I was speaking mostly in terms that they don't like blood but they do like freedom.  If Bush was just a warmonger he would not have had the military do things like drop food to the afganize etc, he would have just nuked them.  

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Exactly, he will not allow that now! what about before Sept.11th??? what about the other republicans in power????

Well, he's in power now...why you don't all stop using mid east oil!!!!!! He has the power to do that if he wants.

I cannot believe you're saying this!. Don't you know he has an image to care about also? do you think he will be so dumb in attack and kill everyone even innocent people ?(who by the way were already killed by US arm forces) I'm NOT saying he doesn't care about people, what I'm saying is that his priority is his own country NOT the world. And I'm okay with it, that's his job to care about his country and his people....I just don't like when he comes with the Captain America speech, that drives me bananas.
My whole point here Brian is that I don't know how the american population feel about all this but to be honest to believe that Bush or any other guy is going to do all this because of the sake of the humanity, it's a joke!. I cannot believe people can actually think this!...
As Pres. Hinckley said: "Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation"

I guess I'm lucky in this case because I'm not an american citizen so I don't really have to stand solidly with him. If I would be an american citizen and the Prophet says that wowww...that would be a hard one for me.
To be more clear with you, I don't have NOTHING against Bush or republicans or democrats, are ALL the same to me. I just don't like double speech, as a person living outside the US it makes me angry to hear when they say they're going to do all this for 'me' and the rest of the world. That's bologna...they're doing it for themselves and their own selfish interests.
I DO believe the terrorist groups need to be judged and accountable for the terrible things they have done and do every day. I just don't think this 'move' with the war is going to achieve that goal.

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George Bush has been trying to make our country engergy independent.  As I said before the Democrats have been holding this whole thing up.  I can see that you are unaware of how the United States Government is set up.  "he" President Bush, is not "in power" this country does not have a dictator like other countries that does whatever he wants.  There is this thing called Congress, and it is divided into two parts the House of Representatives and the Senate.  The Senate until just a week ago has had a small and perhaps illigedamate majority with the Senate Majority Leader Thomas Daschel as their leader and he is the one at fault for us not being energy independent.  He held up the vote in the senate and now it may take a while to reverse the damage he has done.  

"He has the power to do that if he wants."

Are the countries that you guys live in Dictatorships or something?  The President can't do anything he wants.  He is the president of the Executive Branch, the congress makes the laws, he signs them into law and sees that they are executed and then their is the Judicial branch, which verifies that the laws are indeed constitutional.  

The United States has this document called the Constitution have you ever heard of it?  If you read it you will see that no man in this country can do whatever they want.  Bill Clinton in my opinion got away with a lot but he did not do everything he wanted (oh thank goodness for that)

"My whole point here Brian is that I don't know how the american population feel about all this but to be honest to believe that Bush or any other guy is going to do all this because of the sake of the humanity, it's a joke!. I cannot believe people can actually think this!... "

Just look at the election this past week, the Republicans took the Democrats down like a tidal wave (and Preisident Bush's bro won reelction in Florida)  Largly because the American People Trust their president.

"I guess I'm lucky in this case because I'm not an american citizen so I don't really have to stand solidly with him."

Let me ask you this, do you think God is going to inspire his prophet to say one thing to one group of people but have an entirly different agenda in mind for others of his church?  I don't think so.  A saying that I have heard "A prophet speaks for God unless I disagree with what the Prophet is saying, then it is only his opinion"

"To be more clear with you, I don't have NOTHING against Bush"

But you did say he likes blood, and that is wrong.

"I just don't like double speech, as a person living outside the US it makes me angry to hear when they say they're going to do all this for 'me' and the rest of the world. That's bologna...they're doing it for themselves and their own selfish interests. "

That is an opinion but I don't agree with it.  The fact of the matter is what would this world be like without the United States of America?  Ask yourself that question and answer it honestly.  Does your government have a big army to protect itself against invading foes?  Why not?  Would it happen to be that they don't have to since the United States military would oppose any invading force that came over the ocean, I believe the answer would be yes.

Name the interest that you see are purly American.  Oil?  American's only import a small percentage of Mid East oil, we produce most of our own.  George W. Bush if he really cared about his own interest would not be going after Saddam because the Bush family as you may know are oil men and of course emotionally you would want to say that proves your point, but what you fail to realize is that Mid East Oil would be competition for the Bush family not a complement to their own business.

What significance does this war really have on you personally enough to make you angry?  I mean, you are basically an insigificant target for the terrorist, your armies are only big enough to fight civil wars if that is even needed (all because you have no need to worry about invading foes from overseas due to the United States military) when it comes down to it, you live in a nice place on earth and have the time to come up with your anti american ideas because the United States will always be their to protect you guys from stronger forces overseas.

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Okay I had more time to think about this.

Just some thoughts, and that is as to the topic this was intended to be, in regards to the last war before the second coming, I would say that it is definitly not George W. Bush or America under his lead that would take the world to the "Last War"  Again I am sticking to my guns on this one, if one reviews what has been taught by the prophets and apostles of the latter days and those in ancient times one would see that that last war WILL NOT be in the next four or even eight years.  

This is another point which President Hinckley made in October of 2001:

"Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord's work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it."

That demonstrates to me that this is not the time for the final battle.

The scriptures teach that Magog will be the aggressor and latter day apostles have taught that Russia is the latter day Magog:

"Now here is the difference between Zion and old Jerusalem. The Jews, or many of them, will gather back to Jerusalem in a state of unbelief in the true Messiah, believing in the prophets but rejecting the New Testament, and looking for the Messiah to come, honest-hearted no doubt, many of them. And they will rebuild Jerusalem after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. While in that state of unbelief Gog and Magog, the inhabitants of Russia and all those nations in northern Europe and northern Asia, a great multitude, will gather against the Jews before Jesus comes, and they will fill up the great valley of Armageddon, the great valley of Jehosaphat and all the surrounding valleys; they will be like a cloud covering the land. Horses and chariots and horsemen, a very great army, will gather up there to take a spoil. For you know when the Rothschilds and the great bankers among the Jewish nation shall return back to their own land to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, carrying their capital with them, it will almost ruin some of the nations, and the latter will go up against Jerusalem to take a spoil. And they will succeed in taking half the city captive; and when they are in the act of destroying that city, behold the Lord will come with all his Saints, and he shall stand his feet on the Mount of Olives, "And in that day" says the Prophet Zachariah "shall the Lord go forth and fight against all those nations that have fought against Jerusalem, and their flesh shall consume away upon their bones, their eyes in their sockets. This great calamity comes upon the Jewish nation in consequence of their unbelief in the true Messiah."  (Orson Pratt,  Journal of Discourses vol. 14)

"Gog and Magog are all the nations of the earth who take up the sword against Israel and Jerusalem in the day of Armageddon. Their identities remain to be revealed when the battle alliances are made. We can assume, however, that the United States, as the defender of freedom in all the world, will head one coalition, and that Russia, whose avowed aim is to destroy freedom in all nations, will head the enemies of God."  (Bruce R. McConkie, Millienial Messiah page 481)

World Governments & Politics - An LDS view?

Have you read the thread 'Too Mormony Utah Mormons and Everywhere else' in the Christian Doctrine section?. Oh boy, you sound just like one (even though you live in Cali) in the sense that LDS americans (Heck! don't know why) think that the rest of the people who are not americans and live around the world are ignorant about how the USA government or life there is. : I always have to remind them that we do learn in school about the USA and the rest of the world, not to mention, we hear the news. In my case, I LIVED in the USA, so I do know how the whole thing works.
I know Bush cannot 'technically' do whatever he wants, but he does have the power to do certain things and changes than of course a normal citizen or governor cannot do.

I'm from Argentina (want to believe you know where is located, believe me or not, most of young americans I talked to when I was there didn't know was in South America, but they were going to college) :
Argentina has democracy and a President with a Congress and Senate just like in the United States.
My husband is from Trinidad and Trinidad follows the British system. We have a Prime Minister and a Parliament.
So, none of those countries have dictators if that answers your question.

I want to believe you're being sarcastic, otherwise I will have to kick your butt and send you to school again. :

Hey listen, I never say I disagree with what the Prophet said. What I said was that if I was an american citizen it would be hard for me to support Bush (or ANY other person) in a war. PLUS, Pres. Hinckley was refering to American Citizen specifically...
Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation

Did you see that? AMERICAN CITIZENS.

I don't know what would this world be like without the United States of America. What would be this world without Tanzania or Papua New Guinea?.
I do not live in my country so I cannot tell you about the army there, of course we do not posses the army that the USA has if that is what you want to know.

You made me laugh loud in this one boy. Personally it makes me angry when people lies to get things for themselves. I'm BLESSED to be an 'insignificant' target for a terrorist. I DO NOT have anti-american ideas. Brian, come on, I know you're smarter than that statment man. Just because someone doesn't agree with the american point of view it doesn't make them an anti-american.
You last paragraph are typical of a LDS american who didn't not experience enough life yet in the sense of being 'out' there in the world out without living the nice and warm comfort of a beautiful house in the US. You need to open your eyes a bit more and see really that there is a different world out there besides the United States, and people struggling, suffering, and asking for help...some innocent people who died in Afghanistan killed by a missile that says 'Made in USA'. Soldiers (Americans and others) who are tired to be in war and kill...family of the victims of Sept 11th...and so many more people. So I will not be so rushed like you are to take out my flag and say 'Let's go to war'.

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For your information I know where Argentina is, right north of Antartica cross over some ice, cold water, and if you survive that and hit land, your there!

I have been outside of the United States more than once in my life and I know how specifically the latin community mistakes everyone here as living in Beverly Hills.  For your information most houses in Guatemala are bigger than mine, I have a train track 25 feet from my bedroom a highway that traffics 30,000 people a day ten feet from my bedroom, and here is the big shocker for you, my neighbors are not white.  Not everyone in the United States lives cozy, so if you don't like it that I have preconcieved notions of what outsiders think you should think about your preconcieved notions of what life in America is for everyone, it is not the same.

I asked you if you knew about the consititution because if you did you would know that George W. Bush does not have the power that you think he has.

The last statement I made was true, if not for the United States you would be living in Trinidad, providence of Germany, and I would be living in California (had it not been for out military) providence of Japan.  Or you would be in the communist providence of Trinidad.

"some innocent people who died in Afghanistan killed by a missile that says 'Made in USA'. Soldiers (Americans and others)"

And there is the rest of that story that has been covered up.  I could also point out that our military bombs itself more than it bombs enemies.

"You need to open your eyes a bit more and see really that there is a different world out there besides the United States"

I'll open my eyes a bit more when the rest of the world educates itself on the facts and stops flinging these phoney accusations at my president.  

You laughed when I said that George W. was like Captain Moroni,  and my invitation to you would be to get out of the great and spacious building before it falls and find out the real reason I came of with what I said.  May I ask you, have you really prayed about this matter?

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I tell you something, I like you but sometimes you have this 'judgemental holy than thou' attitude that drives me nuts!. You know me, I'm very straightforward person, this statement made me sick:

Hmmm....Are you Brian T or Lehi and I didn't know!. I could take that bad, but I will not. I will just take it as a lack of hmmm...maturity let's say. If you didn't know it let me tell you that you're not Lehi, Nephi or Moroni, to 'invite' people out of the 'great and spacious building'.
You know me just a little bit, and you don't really know anything about my spirituality to make an statement like that. I would suggest to be very careful on how you words things because it can really make someone get hurt (I have seen this plenty times in Church). Sometimes it's better to think with our brains than with our excitment.
Even though I disagree with your point of view, I respect it. It's so hard for you to do the same?
Not everyone think like you do, people outside the USA think differently as you can see. And there are PLENTY reasons, if you just really open your eyes and see....