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Association of Righteousness with Color

Okay people. I know this topic is very broad so I will mention some of the issues I would like to discuss in this thread. It is very long but worth it. Please read it ALL!

1. One of the Prophets of our dispensation taught that the race and nation in which we are born into this world is a direct result of our pre-existence life. What are your thoughts about it?.
We know God is no respecter of persons. Bruce R. Mc Conkie in Mormom Doctrine said "Caste systems have their root and origin in the gospet itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord....All this is not to say  that any race, creed, or caste should be denied any inalienable rights. But it is to say that Deity in his infinite wisdom, to carry out his inscrutable purposes, has a caste system of his own, a system of segregation of races and peoples. The justice of such a system is evident when life is considered in its true eternal Perspective. It is only by a knowledge of pre-existence that it can be known why some persons are born in one race or caste and some in another."

Now, I'm not speaking about Spiritual Segregation but Race segregation. So are we saying that those who were born in the white race in this world were more righteous in their pre-existence life than the ones who were born in the black race for instance?.

2. Those who have the old version of the Book of Mormon will realize a few interesting changes on it regards to certain words on this issue.

Old Book of Mormon: "And many generations shall not pass away among them save they shall be white and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6 )

Our Present Book of Mormon:  "And many generations shall not pass away among them save they shall be pure and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6 ).

Now, I know some of your responses may be that Joseph Smith translation at that time the world 'white' was the most appropiate for the word 'purity'. I personally think is not, he made a perfect translation of this Book and I don't see the complication of translating the word 'pure' but he used the word 'white' refering specifically to Race. How we do know that?. Let's check 3 Nephi 2:15-16  talking about the Lamanites its reads "And their curse was taking from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites. And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, amd they were numbered amomg the Nephites, and were called Nephites."

So it's obvious by this scriptures that we are not talking only about Spiritual aspect but Physical also.
Why the Church changed the word 'white' for 'pure'?.

Now, let me also add some quotes of leaders of the Church concerning Race. I know that it not neccesaraly means is 'doctrine' but I still have some issues with it since some of these brethren were Prophets or big leaders. Let me know your thoughts about this.

"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth; we will sommons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be pertakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the preisthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to desstruction,--we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed." (Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, dated February 5, 1852, located in the LDS Church Historical Department) .

"First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder. Not one in a thousand Americans -- black or white -- really understands the full implications of today's civil rights agitation. The planning, direction, and leadership come from the Communists, and most of those are white men who fully intend to destroy America by spilling Negro blood, rather than their own.

Next, we must not participate in any so-called "blacklash" activity which might tend to further intensify inter-racial friction. Anti-Negro vigilante action, or mob action, of any kind fits perfectly into the Communist plan. This is one of the best ways to force the decent Negro into cooperating with militant Negro groups. The Communists are just as anxious to spearhead such anti-Negro actions as they are to organize demonstrations that are calculated to irritate white people.

"We must insist that duly authorized legislative investigating committees launch an even more exhaustive study and expose the degree to which secret Communists have penetrated into the civil rights movement. The same needs to be done with militant anti-Negro groups. This is an effective way for the American people of both races to find out who are the false leaders among them. " (Ezra Taft Benson talk about Communism, General Conference Report, October 1967, p. 38).

"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today.... The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation...." (Spencer W. Kimball, Conference Report, October 1960).



"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses,  7:290;).

I know some of you will say that these quotes, specially the ones about Brighan Young are not Scripture but he said " Ihave never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture "(ibid., 13:95).

And the last one by President Smith:

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages,  while another is born white with great advantages... The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66; emphasis added).


Based on all this, Are we saying the black race is 'inferior', Are we saying that 'white' people were more righteous in the Pre-existence and that's why they were born into that race?. Let me know your thoughts.  This whole subject have been bothering me for the past 16 years without getting a proper answer. I would love to discuss this issue here. Since the message is really long, please take the time to read the whole thread and quote when give your opinions. Thanks!

Color Righteousness Association

After reviewing your message I will now have to ban you from the board (just kidding). Yes these can be considered 'issues', but for me I really have not taken them on much because it is doctrinal. For instance, if one reads the Old Testament then you can see how 'harsh' the Lord treated those who were not part of Israel. Even when Christ came as a man, he said he came to the Jews and even told the woman of Samaritan descent that, "It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it to dogs."

Matthew

15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it to dogs.

15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which
fall from their masters' table.

15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy
faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made
whole from that very hour.

Seems strong that the Savior used the word 'dog' there isn't it? Only after proving to the Lord her faith that He said, "...be it unto thee even as thou wilt" thus it is for some reason their are many races.

Another point that may seem different but is very similar is those that are blind, deaf or have some kind of handicapped. We could actually ask a similar question in wonder of why these souls should receive such a fate in this life. There must be something that has to manifest itself through the current 'fate' of all of us. I do not fully comprehend it, but I am at the moment open to it. So thus a 'white' person who may have done 'better' in the life before will still have to prove himself/herself to the degree of his race and background, but the same may not be required of someone of a different race and background.

Lastly, I do wonder about the substitution for the word 'white', but I have not dived into much of it yet. I am sure Nighthawk will say this is the Church's way of making itself look good to Babylon? All in my opinion.

Association of Righteousness with Color Studies Doctrine Mormon

I understand your questions LDS Foever.  I have often wondered about these issues.  It is difficult to be difinitive as the subject is so broad.  However JB Trinidad mentioned something I agree with and have considered for a long time.  He said     "Another point that may seem different but is very similar is those that are blind, deaf or have some kind of handicapped. We could actually ask a similar question in wonder of why these souls should receive such a fate in this life. There must be something that has to manifest itself through the current 'fate' of all of us. I do not fully comprehend it, but I am at the moment open to it. So thus a 'white' person who may have done 'better' in the life before will still have to prove himself/herself to the degree of his race and background, but the same may not be required of someone of a different race and background. "    
I believe that since progression is an important part of the gospel.  It must always be a part of our being.   We progressed in the pre-earth life to the point where we needed a body and the experiences of mortal life to continue our progression.  This still goes on today.  Those who are called as apostles and prophets have progressed in their descipleship to the point of leadership in preaching and teaching the gospel.  We are each individuals and must continue our individual progress in our individual manner with our individual circumstances and abilities.  We do not have the same talents or level of talent as another.  The talents of understanding and learning and teaching are not alike for anyone.  Individual characteristics are part of what make each of us unique.   As a race this is also true on a bigger scale.  I think this is related to another thread.  In which the question was put on the board "Are there different mothers for each race" or something akin to that.  There are 12 tribes (races?)  I think it was LDSforever that brought this to the board as well.  I think there is much here to ponder.   Why not different mothers for each race/tribe?  Why not a different level or method of understanding which is coherant to race?  Sounds extremely logical.  The gospel is very logical, makes good sense to me.
granny7

Color Righteousness Association

JB, thanks for your message. A couple of comments about the scripture you mentioned. The woman that Mathew talks about was not a Samaritan but a Greek or more literally a Gentile. When Christ answered the woman "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs", Elder James Talmage in 'Jesus The Christ' explains..."The words, harsh as they may sound to us, were understood by her in the spirit of the Lord's intent. The original term here translated 'dogs' connoted, as the narrative shows, not the vagrant and despised curs elsewhere spoken of in the Bible as typical of a degraded state, or of positive badness, but literally the 'little dogs' or domestic pets, such as were allowed in the house under the table.
Certainly, the woman took no offense at the comparison, and found therein no objectionable epithet. Instantly she adopted the analogy, and applied it in combined argument and suplication".

Now, this thread is not specifically about that, I know, I just wanted to mention that.

Maybe this thread will help to unsolve that mystery.

The apostles of Christ asked him a similar question, when they saw a blind guy in the street they asked him 'Who have sinned? him? his parents' (the belief of the jews at that time was that handicapped people came into this world with a 'sin' on them from their parents) and Jesus answered 'None of them sinned, but for the works of the Lord may be manifested unto them'.

ALL of them must prove themselves but in different ways, of course since we all have been born in different circumsntances.

Yes I agree with our progression, what I'm talking about it here is the relationship between our pre-existence life 'success' and the race where we are born with. That's the point. And also why we changed those key words from the Book of Mormon. (from "white and delightsome" to "pure and delightome")I noticed you didn't answer that part or comment about the quotes of the Presidents of the Church.


I know the thread is long, but I look for more detail answers based on my post. Thank you again.

Color Righteousness Association

It is possible that whites were the least valiant and will receive a lesser ultimate reward. I often have thought that those with severe challenges in this life are being tested more thoroughly because Heavenly Father has big plans for them and needs to be especially sure of their "loyalty." So far in this earth's life, I believe life has been more challenging for non-whites than whites so maybe this is one reason why.

What he said made sense at the time. Blacks could not hold the priesthood. Until Heavenly Father changed that, it would have meant the end of the priesthood on the earth in a one short generation. Children born where one parent was black would not be able to hold the priesthood. Also, it could be construed to mean that we didn't have the right to issue such a doctrine on our own and if we were so bold as to do so, the Lord would render retribution which could mean removal of the Church leaders who were leading the Church astray. Could simply mean that any such doctrine had to come from Heavenly Father not from man.

I have no problem with the change in the word "white" to "pure." If my leaders have offered an explanation, I choose to accept and believe their explanation.

I agree with Granny's thoughts too about maybe the condition in pre-existance being nothing more than who our mother was.

Offtopic but, Granny you should use the quote tags to quote. It makes it easier to read. Click quote above the post you want to quote and then delete the portions you are not quoting. Also if you look at the code it inserts around the quote, you will learn how to quote without using the quote link.

As far as quotes from Church leaders that were not set out as doctrine. I have no issue with that because I remember that they were human. They were products of their times and so their personal thoughts and beliefs would have been a result of all they had experienced in their lifetimes. As long as they weren't saying "thus saith the Lord," I don't see it as an issue.

Now, I suppose it is also possible that whites were more valiant in the pre-existance. That would not be a politically correct or popular position to take, but it still could be a fact. It is just as likely that this is not the case.

I am caucasion, so it is less of an issue for me personally, but I do see how it could be troublesome for some without a full understanding of the issues. I am not sure we will ever have a full understanding in this life, but maybe some of my thoughts are close to the truth. Wh knows.

Association of Righteousness with Color

LDS, right, Gentile and clarification for 'dog'. I had not turned to my deep doctrine scriptures before the post so thanks for the corrections. However, her being a Gentile or Samaritan does not matter hence the basis of this is that she was treated differently because of her 'race' even if it said in 'kind'.

With regards to the changing of the word, I am not able to research it still, but maybe someone else can?

Association Righteousness Color

[quote] It is possible that whites were the least valiant and will receive a lesser ultimate reward. [/quote]

Based on what the Church think about this topic, is not so. The Church think that whoever born 'white' into this world were more righteous in the Pre-existence. Personally I have a very hard time believing this, not only because I'm not Caucasian but because I don't really think that the race we are born with has nothing to do with our personal righteousness before coming to this Earth but as a test on how much we would endure, I even think we may have 'chosen' what race we would have been born with or at least 'suggest' it.


[quote] I have no problem with the change in the word "white" to "pure."  If my leaders have offered an explanation, I choose to accept and believe their explanation.  [/quote]

And what explanation is that? I have not seen any explanation about this subject.

[quote] As far as quotes from Church leaders that were not set out as doctrine.  I have no issue with that because I remember that they were human.  They were products of their times and so their personal thoughts and beliefs would have been a result of all they had experienced in their lifetimes.  As long as they weren't saying "thus saith the Lord," I don't see it as an issue[/quote]

I do have issues with it because it sounds very racial, let's admit that. Whether it was their personal opinion or not, I'm sorry to say it sounds awful and hurtful. Regards to whether they said or not 'thus saith the Lord' it doesn't make really a difference because all of these leaders were Prophets inspired by God, so whether it was revelation or not, it affected and will affect the lives of Saints everywhere. Also remember Pres. Brigham Young statement when he said " I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture "(ibid., 13:95).

[quote]
Now, I suppose it is also possible that whites were more valiant in the pre-existance. That would not be a politically correct or popular position to take, but it still could be a fact. [/quote]

Baed on what facts would you supposed or suggest this?

[quote]However, her being a Gentile or Samaritan does not matter hence the basis of this is that she was treated differently because of her 'race' even if it said in 'kind'. [/quote]

True and I still not fully understand that either, just because somebody is from a different race would be treated it 'differently'.

[quote] With regards to the changing of the word, I am not able to research it still, but maybe someone else can?[/quote]

I will make a deep research today about this one but maybe somebody else has an answer before I post.

Association Righteousness Color Mormon Doctrine Studies

Just my opinion, I am not a scientist. I personally don't think the amount of melanin pigment in the skin mattered in the pre-existence and I don't think it will matter after we die. I think it is just an earthly condition, an additional tool given to provide the thorns and stickers we must endure and overcome. Frankly, I hope that in the eternities, I won't be "white"...an albino without any melanin in my skin.

I believe the fathers of the church wanted to emphasize that white mentioned in the Book of Mormon is actually purity. We learn this in the temple. We all wear white as a symbol of purity...that we are equal in the same in purpose and all fellow saints in the gospel.

Was Christ "white"? I don't think so. Was Nephi white? I am caucasian but I look down at my skin and it is very tan from working in my garden. I imagine those of you who spend time at the beach or where it is more sunny year round, are much darker than me who works in a computer room all day, get in my car and go from car to my house.

I believe someone with the spirit, that has "a change of heart" whether Hawaiian, Black, Chinese, Indian or Caucasian can change to a "pure and delightsome" people. (JMO)

Bruce T. Harper wrote about the "white and delightsome" change to pure in the Oct. Ensign, 1981, that it was Joseph Smith, Jr intention that the text be changed to "pure" instead of "white."

"...In order to present the word of God as accurately as possible, a number of corrections have been made in the text itself, primarily in the Book of Mormon. Most students of latter-day scriptures are aware that from the very first printing typographical errors have crept into the Book of Mormon. For example, the Missionary Department recently received a letter from a missionary couple who, in studying the scriptures together, had noticed that one of the words in the husband's copy of the Book of Mormon was different from the word in his wife's copy. In checking this discrepancy further, they determined that the husband's copy had been printed in the 1940s, whereas the copy the wife had been reading was printed during the 1960s. (For an interesting discussion of errors in the Book of Mormon, see Ensign, Sept. 1976, pp. 77-82.)

The Prophet himself attempted to correct some of these kinds of errors, but his many duties prevented him from completing the project; and even so, some of his corrections seem to have disappeared again in later editions. For example, the 1830 and 1837 printings of the Book of Mormon contained a prophecy that the Lamanites would one day become "a white and delightsome people" (2 Ne. 30:6).

In the 1840 printing, which the Prophet edited, this passage was changed to read "a pure and delightsome people," but for some reason later printings reverted to the original wording.

When we consider the primitive conditions under which early editions of latter-day scriptures were printed, it is easy to understand how such errors arose and were perpetuated. It is not surprising, therefore, that about two hundred of these kinds of errors that have been identified in the Book of Mormon alone have now been corrected.

Elder McConkie points out that readers will want to keep two important principles in mind as they deal with these corrections. In the first place, the objective, in every case, has been to return to the wording which evidence indicates was intended by the Prophet Joseph Smith. And secondly, every correction was approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Brethren felt good about each of them."