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Global Warming: Natural Or Man-made? - Page 8

That is the point. The facts from your side of the argument are supported by scientists who are not involved in the science concerned with global warming! Climatologists are VERY ambivalent about "global warming" because the facts are very contradictory!

Will you address the facts that I offered? How about CO2 production? Is the US really producing more CO2 than we are absorbing?

Is water vapor the most pernicious greenhouse gas, or not? If not, what is? If so, what can we do about it? Not using petroleum doesn't help the water vapor problem. Maybe if we cut down all the trees, which exhale water vapor, we could reduce the water vapor.

Oh, we could almost eliminate methane, another pernicious "greenhouse gas" by killing all the cows, horses, deer, elk, caribou, and other ruminants.

I don't believe the media about alternative energy. All of the alternative energy proposals, except for efficient fuel cells, work great - on a very small scale, limited basis. Do you REALLY think that we can produce enough ethanol to provide for the needs of the US? Does wind power really provide a fiscally-sound alternative for electricity - for Los Angeles?

Science Magazine is a proponent of the "global warming" theories. How do YOU think they are going to come down on the side of questionable alternatives?

Finally, did you read the article I linked to? Do you really think that the threat of "global warming" is more important to stop than, say, Iran getting a nuclear bomb, or Hezbollah shooting rockets into civilian neighborhoods, or Al-Qaeda driving planes into skyscrapers and planting bombs on subways?

What is your definition of evil? Is it humans deliberately murdering babies and children? Or is it evil conservatives who don't believe in global warming, and want some real evidence, not correlations, concerning the science, from scientists trained in that field of science?

I know that you think I am naive and unconcerned about the environment. Actually, I am involved directly in alternative technologies, and I know exactly how useless the alternative technologies are that the Left is so happy about. I love the outdoors, and want to protect it. But I don't want to do it at the expense of peoples lives and livelihoods.

Would you please tell me exactly what issue of Science had the article you have been referring to? I would like to read it.

Man-made Natural Warming Global

Before I start on this one, I need to address one issue. Ethanol can be used as an alternative fuel and can be brewed more efficient and cleaner than it is, but one solution is not the only solution. True alternative fuels ARE being used on a large scale in other areas. Thats proven and the article even points specific places and amounts of energy produced, so thats not a question at all dealt with here. If all you say is that the numbers lie, the media lies, there are no real alternative fuel methods, then I can't argue with you, but you are incorrect in my opinion. You should read the article yourself. MOST of the article is online and you can read it for yourself. https://www.popsci.com/popsci/energy/

Now on to what I wanted to say to begin with. I hope that my slight change in heart towards global warming does not come with an I told you so. And I believe that Farseer and Nighthawk have already said this, but I don't believe the media either and I don't believe what people tell me, I have to find it for myself. So hear is what I have decided after nearly three months of cramming for this thread. It has been heated, but I am not one who cannot learn.

1. There is no data showing the global warming is not happening. The fact is, there is not enough data to say either way. Even further, while data suggests that the burning of fossil fuels is increasing global warming, that doesn't explain the "mini-ice age we had in the 1400's when cars and such didn't exist. So if global warming is happening, it may or may not be caused by humans. Data is only conclusive to people emotionally for or against global warming, not to real scientists. In fact, there is not enough data for use to conclusively argue the global warming point at all.

2. Global warming is not caused by the cutting down of trees and the rain forest. In fact, we have nearly 2/3 more trees on the planet now than in 1920. Part of the reason for this is that we now grow tree farms for paper instead of rampant deforestation. With more trees now that ever, it is essentially helping out the environment more and more every year. So using paper creates more need, with creates more tree farms. Trees are, after all, a renewable resource.

3. There wasn't tons of scientists screaming about global warming. In fact, 15,000 scientists protested the Kyoto accord in 1998. Don't know if I believe it, but its and impressive tally. https://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=50

4. Recycling is not good for the environment or anyone else. Some myths busted about recycling that are provable and verifiable.
A. Recycling creates more of a need for energy and more fossil fuel use than making the same things from scratch.
B. It costs more money to recycle that it costs to dump the trash. It is more expensive for most companies, outside of aluminum cans, to recycle than to make products from scratch.
C. Recycling creates lousy, unnecessary, make work jobs, not well paying needed jobs.
D. Recycling does not save trees because paper is now made from trees grown in tree farms.
E. The increased use in fossil fuels create more air pollution.
F. Methane gas from landfills can be piped out and converted to energy for local residents.
G. We are not running out of landfill space, just a 35 mile square 200 feet deep or high is all it would take to store all of the USA's trash for a 1000 years, population growth not taken into account.
H. Nearly 40% of all things "recycled" get put into the landfill anyway according to the NY dept. of sanitation.

So recycling doesn't help the air, or global warming, so why do we do it? But thats another thread. The point is, if there is so little data about global warming, then why are so many people in a huff about it, including me? In fact, why are so many people in a huff against it? They don't have conclusive evidence to denounce the claim either, the existing data can, and often is interpreted differently. The really sad part about all of this is I wasted many months arguing for global warming when I just didn't understand the opposite interpretation I was reading. The evidence for this argument has been essentially the same inconclusive data, and unfortunately, a whole slew of people written opinion articles that don't amount to a hill of beans to me. So further more, until something else conclusively comes out, I can not in good conscience argue for or against global warming any more. I only hope that the future does not hold another ice age for our children or grandchildren due to our ignorance and resistance to changing for the better. I still believe that cars lead to dirty air and that there are plenty of other fuel sources we can use to save money and stop using fossil fuels. I just no longer know if they are causing global warming, or even if global warming is happening.

Edited: konquererz on 20th Jul, 2006 - 5:44am

Global Warming: Natural Or Man-made? History & Civil Business Politics

Thank you for the link. There are some good suggestions there. However, many of them are still far in the future, and filled with a lot of engineering problems. But it is good that people are working on them.

I thought that you had said it was in Science magazine, not Popular Science. I put a lot more faith in the second rather than the first.

I have held all along not that global warming ISN'T happening, but that nobody really KNOWS. But based upon a lot of panicky statements by people such as Al Gore, people want to punish American, English, and European industry, without knowing how much, if any, those industries are contributing or helping the environment.

Thanks for the information on recycling. I knew those things, but didn't have any source to back it up. The only thing that I could really contribute on that subject is that plastic containers (such as hamburger boxes) contribute far less pollution, and take far less energy to make, than paper containers of the same size.

Page 8 Man-made Natural Warming Global

I think we are more on the same page now than before. 99.9% of all scientists agree that global warming is happening. It is the cause that becomes the reason for debate. But there are a few interesting stats I would like to share. Though I admit, I'm more confused now about the cause is be it human or natural.

1. Patagonian Ice Fields have lost 10% of their mass in ten years.
2. Glacier National Park originally recorded 150 glaciers, they now have 40.
3. In the last three years, the entire Antarctic Peninsula (about the size of Rhode Island), broke off and fell into the sea.
4. The average global temperature has change 1% in 100 years.
5. The difference between the depths of ice age and what we consider normal is a mere four degrees.
6. Ice Ages have occurred in the past when the planet, every 100,000 years, moves further from the sun, then begins to move back slowly as its orbit becomes less elliptical. Possible that this is the cause but that humanity is making it worse, which would be an interesting compromise.
7. Australia is recording is second straight year of record high temps. Last year was set the record for hurricane frequency and strength. The frequency is most likely due to a thirty year storm cycle, but the strength is not affected by that.
8. CO2 in glacier layers can tell us the changes in temperature over the last 600,000 years. CO2 is higher in our atmosphere than it has ever been in 600,000 years.
9. Trees absorb co2. The Amazon rain forest is going into its third straight year of record low rain falls. As a forest dies, it releases more co2 into the air.
10. Coal, oil, and natural gas are all created from the compression of carbon rich materials. As they burn, they release carbon dioxide into the air.
11. The Keeling Curve shows the increase the carbon cycle, showing that more and more carbon is being left in the air instead of being filtered out. Put side by side with the amount of fossil fuels humanity burns, they correspond.
12. In polar bear country, arctic, the sea ice has continued to diminish as an astonishing rate. Population is down from 1200 to 900 in ten years due to this. Sea ice provides space for traveling seals. When the ice diminishes, they leave and the bears don't have any food for the summer. Since the ice melts sooner, they have a diminished hunting season for the summer fast. Low body weight of female polar bears (down 15% since 1980) makes for less milk production. Any lower weight and they will not be able to produce.
13. Total amount of glacier lose in Greenland has doubled twice in ten years.
14. The south pacific island of toudalo usually has tides high enough to flood for close to two months. Tides are now high enough to cause flooding and damage for over 6 months out of the years.
15. Oldest sea level measurer is in Tasmania and shows 6 inch rise in sea level since the 1940's.
16. The seas average temperature has raised one degree in the last 100 years as well. Possible cause of storm strengths increasing. Sea temperature directly affects storms.
17. Hadley model shows continued increase in temperature and climate changes if we continue on preset course and half of species on earth dying out. Hadley model correctly predicted, down to 1/10 of a degree, global climate changes after Mount Pinatubo erupted.
18. Coral reefs are endangered due to global warming. Coral like the barrier reef are nourished by the algae that grow on them. In over half of the barrier reef, the algae have left due to higher sea temps. Barrier reef is in danger of disappearing. Coral reefs are a key part in providing us oxygen to breathe as well.
19. Possible effects of global warming include winters with more precipitation, but are shorter. Storms increasing in strength. Areas of famine getting to much rain, areas with abundant rain getting none. Hadley model has accurately predicted the global climate for the last five years, including stronger storms and temperatures to the half degree.
20. Bad decisions for our environment:
A. China is opening one new coal burning plant every week for seven years.
B. USA has only 5% of the world's population but produces 25% of the worlds CO2 emissions. 1/4 of all CO2 is from cars.
C. All scientists who protested Kyoto were American and a few were British. Reasons officially sited were that developing nations didn't have to sign, and they needed incontrovertible proof that global warming was happening.
21. NYC has hybrid taxi fleets, electric buses, green buildings, and Elise Island is run off of wind power.
22. Hybrid and electric cars make no difference if the electricity is made burning coal.

Sorry it's so long. But as you can see, the situation is much worse than most right wing people believe, but not nearly as easy to define an answer as left wingers say. It's always some where in between, I just needed to take the time to find reality.

Since its obvious that we won't be using available cleaner technology for a long time due to development and big oil companies, and hybrid cars, electric cars, and recycling only give the appearance of helping the environment, but doesn't, what can be done to help? Hybrid cars will save you money on gas and stop YOU personally from putting CO2 into the air I suppose. And gas is rather expensive. I will be in search of REAL options to help stop putting CO2 into the air on a personal level and will post them here. But I wonder, knowing this, if there is truly anything that can be done at a personal level. I really think that changes have to be made at the industrial level, with how we produce energy and with what we produce energy.


Edited: konquererz on 23rd Jul, 2006 - 11:14am

Man-made Natural Warming Global

Proof About Global Warming?

Massive surge in disappearance of Arctic sea ice sparks global warning.

Arctic meltdown is speeding up... sea ice is vanishing faster than ever before... polar bears face extinction... and America's top climate scientist warns we only have a decade to save the planet
Ref. https://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1603667.ece

Global Warming: Natural Or Man-made?

KIWIS SEE COSTS OF WARMING - PARKER

Climate Change Minister David Parker believes the "scary" consequences of global warming are finally dawning on New Zealanders.
Ref. https://www.stuff.co.nz/hlc/1,,93498~3847390a11~,00.html

Global Warming Natural Man-made - Page 8

Now that you two have spent 98 cents, I'll throw in my 2. The 60s hippies found by accident that they could gain control of government and make jobs for themselves by claiming species were endangered, the USA is polluting the earth, and we are all going to be too hot. You are exactly right Nighthawk, it's all political.

I tried to research volcanic activity in the 1970s when I was farming, but was not successful, so I'll go with my memory. I was farming 28 acres of plums which are extremely susceptible to cold and hail in the spring of the year. The years that I farmed were some of the meanest on record for plums in Tulare County, California. In those years of cold and hail I remember 2 or 3 (?) volcanos blowing their tops in succession. The weather people at the time said the ash from volcanos stays in the stratosphere for months reflecting sunlight and cooling the earths atmosphere. I'll buy that idea. I'll also guess that the junk we are responsible for that is in our air is reflecting sunlight causing the same effect as volcanic ash, cooling, not warming.

The "predictions" of global warming, as Nighthawk said, come from computer models and people with the almighty $ on their mind. I don't buy it for a moment and never have. The earth heals itself of volcanic gasses and oil spills. If we are lucky, some day it will heal itself of environmentalist. And yes, that's how I really feel.

Global Warming Natural Man-made Politics Business Civil & History - Page 8

Very true, the all mighty dollar is on the mind of people. The almighty dollar is the reason that the United States will not accept that global warming is happening until we have 100% proof. We know this because its effect on our economy is the reason we officially gave for not signing the Kyoto Accord. The second reason was that we couldn't be 100% sure of it.

Britains scientist, just in the last two weeks or so, have come up with even more evidence that global warming is happening and that we are at the very least making it worse with our pollution. We are now the only country that believes that global warming is over hyped, so are we right or is everyone else right. Britain also said that we can no longer afford economically to ignore the problem or it will be even more disastrous to our economy if we ignore it.

Further problems are that Brazil has found ways to use alternate fuels primarily. They are almost all powered by alternative fuels, the whole country. The fact is that the technology is there to make the change but we won't step on the feet of big oil and other large companies that sell fossil fuels. My electricity prices just went down by nearly 1/3 the price per month. My electric company informed me that they were going primarily to new wind farms built in the mid west.

So what does this tell us? It tells us that alternative fuels like wind power is not only effective, but its cheaper. So in the end, conforming to using alternative fuel is being inhibited by large corporations, namely oil companies. Global warming is happening, whether its man-made or natural, we don't necessarily know. But we know this, all the pollution we put into the air is neither helping nor is it cheaper.