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Mormon - Oh Thou Meat Eater! - Page 2

Tena said she knows people who argue over the Word of Wisdom verse she mentioned. I mentioned that those people can argue all they want, I wasn't trying to argue with anyone.

You bring up another point when you talk about a second language. I know Spanish and the Spanish scriptures for verse 18 of section 49 follows the footnote version of "biddeth" and not the actual wording of the revelation which uses "forbiddeth." Just as we say that we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly, we can say we believe in the Doctrine and Covenants as far as it is translated correctly. In this instance, it is incorrectly translated and all Spanish-speaking members will grow up in this church with this erroneously translated verse and will formulate an incorrect idea as to what exactly the Lord is saying here. The only way they can know the truth is if they learn English and then read the actual wording in English. But even then, because not even English speakers can process the phrase, they will be told to just look to the footnote, which makes the verse have the opposite meaning of what it actually means.

These errors can and should be corrected, but will not, so long as we rely upon other people's interpretations. Once you start looking at the scriptures themselves, and get out an English grammar, the meaning of the phrase "forbiddeth to abstain" becomes clear.

No, I am not a vegetarian.

The only documents that can interpret the scriptures definitively are First Presidency statements. Anything other these statements, including any statement by any General Authority, even the prophet, is his opinion. The First Presidency alone has the right, according to their calling, to definitively interpret scriptures. Use of the manuals to interpret your scriptures for you is living on borrowed light. All material from the church or from anywhere else is to be measured by the scriptures. You yourself are to decide whether the material is in error or not, after consulting with the scriptures themselves.

Let me ask you a question, what does "forbiddeth to abstain from meats mean?" What does "biddeth to abstain from meats mean?" What is the difference between the two statements? When you finally are able to understand the difference in the statements, you will finally understand why the Lord purposely used "forbiddeth" and not "biddeth." The rest of the words of the revelation then make perfect sense. But until you can figure this out, you will always have an erroneous idea of the meaning of this scripture as long as you place "biddeth" into the revelation, because "biddeth" and "forbiddeth" have opposite meanings.

Eater Meat Thou - Mormon

Would you mind telling us what you think it means? You seem to have a deeper understanding of english than the average person, so I would be interested in what it means to you.

To me it seems to be saying you can't forbid someone from being a vegaterian, when it says "don't forbiddeth to abstain" - don't tell someone they can't choose to not eat meat. However, if it says don't "biddeth them to abstain" that would seem to say don't encourage them to be vegetarian.

In your opinion, buggeyes, which is it actually saying?

Mormon - Oh Thou Meat Eater! Studies Doctrine Mormon

That's it, Tenaheff, you are correct in your assessment. Apparently, you are the one with an above average understanding of the English language. The revelation reads (verses 18, 19, 20, 21 of section 49):

The phrase "forbiddeth to abstain from meats" means someone tells another that they can't be a vegetarian, whereas the phrase "biddeth to abstain from meats" means someone that commands another to be vegetarian. The "forbidder" is the person who is not ordained of God, whereas the vegetarian is the one justified. The "forbidder" is the condemned person here, not the vegetarian. If you tell me I can't be a vegetarian or somehow prohibit me from being one, you are the one sinning, not me. This is what the Lord is saying.

Verse 19 explains that although meat is ordained for the use of man for food and raiment, it is also that he might have in abundance, meaning they these animals can live and multiply and not be slaughtered and used for food or clothing. The emphasis in on keeping the animals alive.

Then, lest anyone think of hording possessions, the Lord in verse 20 explains that generosity with our substance is needed to escape from condemnation.

Finally, the Lord puts in an additional warning to the meat-eaters: you better make sure you had a need when you eat that meat, because you will be held accountable.

So, the vegetarians are justified in their vegetarianism and the meat-eaters who tell the vegetarians that they can't be vegetarians are condemned. Additionally, the meat-eaters are given an additional warning about when eating meat is allowed; when there is a need. (Not a want, mind you, but a need.)

The footnote word "biddeth" alters the meaning of the revelation into a condemnation of any vegetarians who try to get other people to be vegetarians. The person or committee who inserted that IE, biddeth to abstain footnote were in error and have caused many people to misinterpret the scriptures and to condemn vegetarians.

The truth is that we are free agents and that the Lord is pleased when we don't eat meat (see section 89) but that He makes an allowance for eating meat only when it is winter, famine and excess of hunger, or cold, in other words, when there is an absolute need. If the need doesn't exist, a wo is pronounced upon us if we eat it. Each of us makes our own decision concerning when we are justified in eating meat, or when there is a need, but the injunction to use these things "sparingly" and disregard the rest of the sentence also ignores the rules of English. The Lord defines what "sparingly" means when He goes on to list winter, famine and cold.

There is nothing interpretative about my comments. This is how these passages read according to the English language rules. Interpretation comes in when one decides if it is winter, cold, or excess of hunger, and thus a genuine need to eat meat. And that interpretation is up to the individual and he will have to answer to the Lord one day for his actions.

Once you understand the above verses' meaning, you understand that the Lord was telling the Shakers, who abstained from meat, that they would not be persecuted for joining the Latter-day Saints; that they could enter the waters of baptism and still practice vegetarianism, if they so chose. The section heading and verse heading interprets the revelation and taints our minds to have a preconceived idea that the Lord is condemning the Shakers for their practice of vegetarianism. This is an example of how anything other than the scriptures themselves can guide us in the wrong direction.

Page 2 Eater Meat Thou - Mormon

Interesting points, yes, English is my second language and it may take me a while to fully understand English gramma as a whole. Anyhow, researching in lds.org it seems to me that all the authors (including Prophets) seem to interpret that scripture in the same way I do.

Eater Meat Thou - Mormon

1 Timothy 4: 3

D&C 49: 18

The Lord has covered all bases. Anyone who preaches that it is sin to command anyone to abstain from meats is scripturally correct, according to 1 Timothy 4: 3. Anyone who preaches that it is sin to forbid anyone to abstain from meats is scripturally correct, according to D&C 49: 18. Anyone who tries to make D&C 49: 18 mean the same exact thing as 1 Timothy 4: 3 is scripturally incorrect and doesn't obey the rules of English grammar. It doesn't matter who they are, prophet, apostle, seventy, patriarch, high priest, elder, bishop, priest, teacher, deacon or member, doing such a thing is wresting the scriptures.

Mormon - Oh Thou Meat Eater!

Just as you have pointed out. There are actually some places on the net that discuss this in detail. Now, there seems to be a focus on grammar as a means to correctly understand a verse, this may be true and can be used with D&C easily since it was not translated, but I am not sure such can be used elsewhere. I could bring up another topic here, but won't as it will be off topic, but I am sure you know what I am getting at, if so, feel free to start a new thread.

Mormon - Thou Meat Eater! - Page 2

Huh? I don't understand what you are referring to. Please explain.

Mormon - Thou Meat Eater! Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

As all the Latter-Day Saints get ready to devour their turkey - I wonder if eating meat sparingly will be on their minds this Thanksgiving 2006?