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Lds Or Christian? - Page 3

Tenaheff,

Wait--I am not understanding....

"only if you allow it to happen"

"I need more than prayer"

"I need to be willing to allow the Spirit to work on me."

"I have to be willing to try and live righteously and make the changes."

But it must be contrary to your beliefs, as stated above. Maybe you didn't think about this very deeply yet, or maybe you have and I haven't thought too deeply about what you have said. Do you agree that the scriptures say that you are incapable of doing good? If so, then why do you tell me you do all those things above? Why do you tell me that you need to change your heart's attitude and your choices in life in order for God to make you better? Don't you believe that "it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose?" I really don't understand what you mean, because how can you be required to do something that you are incapable of?? Why would God hold back with conditions that only He himself can supply?

Do you see what I am saying? I want to understand what you are saying....

As for prayer, I have to agree it takes more than prayer but it also takes less than prayer. It takes simple belief in the heart. Because even the Spirit prays for us when we don't. Prayer is a work (a "miracle of obedience") in our life, an expression of the inner reality of how God has touched us.

Christian Lds

I have absolutely thought very deeply about this subject.

Please give me the scriptural reference and then I will answer this question.

I believe I can do good. I know I can. I also believe all good comes from God. So, I may be doing good with his help, but it is still good. I cannot be perfect. Therefore, can not follow the "law" to enter heaven, because I will be condemned because of the "law" if I try to rely on it since I will never successfully follow it 100%.

I do not believe I can decide today to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then next year murder someone in cold blood, never repent of that murder and then think I should have the Lord's peace with me. Do you? It sounds like that is what you are saying.

Do you agree that the Bible says faith without works is dead? James 2:20 and James 2:26.

Lds Or Christian? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Why must it be contrary to our beliefs? From what I can see, you don't know very much about our beliefs. You are making assumptions that don't make sense, and taking proof texts out of the Bible to support your theology.

I know, through personal revelation, that Jesus is the Christ. That He has redeemed me, and that he will sanctify me, as I turn to Him and accept His guidance, strength, and grace.

I know, through personal revelation, that He has restored His Priesthood in these Last Days in preparation for His glorious return. I know that he has given us the Book of Mormon, which reveals His words in plain and simple fashion.

Now, from my point of view, the theology that you have expressed is completely wrong. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus states that His Gospel consists of faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.

I also know that I am a son of God. I existed before I was born into mortality, as a literal spirit child of our Heavenly Father. As such, I DO have the capability to do good, to be obedient, to do what He asks me to do.

From what I can see, you seriously misinterpret the writings of Paul. When Paul wrote and spoke about the Law, he was talking about the Law of Moses. Yes, the law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus, but that doesn't mean that all the laws of God were rescinded, or don't have any effect upon you.

We will probably have to disagree, as there is no way I will, or even can, accept your theology. I have had too many experiences that show me that your theology stops just where the eternal truths that God has revealed begin to get really interesting.

NightHawk

Page 3 Christian Lds

Tenaheff, you wanted a scriptural reference, so I went back to copy the post I already made, which provided many references. However this post is too long and I don't have the room--so go back and find my message that started with point #2 "2) Man is incapable of obedience." I am glad to hear that you have thought deeply about all this. You have brought up many good questions in your post. And since I am limited in frequency of posts I will have to reply to all of them in one shot, here. So I know it is long, so please bear with me....

Okay, so as far as I understand, it sounds like you believe that all good things come from God, right? This is the same as me. I agree, you are indeed doing good in your life, but it has been done by God's mercy on you, and hence His holy power and mindset dwells in you. You didn't accomplish anything in His will because you intrinsically have good within you. Do you agree or disagree? You would not agree that LDS doctrine is a type of humanism?

You seem to be aware that obeying the law cannot be your one and only means of entering heaven, and I would agree. But I also think that you cannot rely on the law (in terms of God measuring your worthiness) in any way. With the exception of rewards--but rewards are something beyond the decision of whether or not we get to go to heaven. I am addressing the idea that you do the best you can and Jesus makes up for the rest, when you stand for judgment.

I want to address the idea that all of us humans do good works, but that they may only be "good" superficially when we look at each other. We do not know the contents of another man's heart "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." 1 cor 2:11. And I think you would agree that God is the exception--He does know the thoughts of men's hearts (and that they are evil). What does it mean when God said "Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God?" rom 2:29

Jesus said, "Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." matt 6:1. Then read an example: (matt 6:16-18) "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

And you know about Jesus' teachings on adultry and murder. You are as guilty of a man who murders when you hate a brother. I am as guilty as having committed adultry when I ever lust in my heart. The entire Law and the Prophets can be summed up in one word: love; an attitude of the heart. A righteous attitude. So we know that when we think about doing a good work, the heart matters even more than the outward act--for having a good intention is valuable even if we don't carry it out to real works--however, a good deed done with selfish intentions has no value at all. We just read that above: "they have received their reward in full." But--here's the kicker--God commands us to hide our works from men as much as we can. Why? Because think about the men who boasted of their charities, their prayers in the synagogues, their fasting in front of other brothers.... It was corrupted because they were motivated by the praise of men rather than the praise of God. God makes His point here--you will seek one or the other in every good work you might do. Counteract your opportunites to seek the praise of men.

When Jesus said, "Be perfect" He wanted us to not only serve God in the flesh (works) but also have purity in the heart when we're doing it. Now my question is: how many people are like this??? How many people serve God alone instead of seeking the notoriety of his brothers in the church? His mom and dad, sister or brother, friends, enemies? How about for the sake of looking like we are people who don't just preach but also live what we believe--that is still seeking to mold the opinions of others. Who, when given the opportunity to receive an earned Oscar, would refuse to accept it? We all like to be noticed for our work. But God said, "hide it!" It is all sin. And sin, taints a good work, and makes it worthless, in God's sight. I hope that you see what I see, because I believe that those who are poor in righteousness will be the most blessed in heaven--we are indeed incapable of doing good.

to be cont'd--the watchdog is on my case...

Christian Lds

Not at all. Humanism is defined as: 1. A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth.
2. Concern with the interests, needs, and welfare of humans

While we are concerned with the values, capacities, and worth, as well as the interests, needs, and welfare of humans, it is in the context of humans as children of a divine Father. We are concerned with helping people to realize that they can actually believe the Bible when it says that He IS our Father, and that as such, He really does understand what we are, what we are going through, and what we can become. And He wants us to become the best that we can, in mortality and in eternity.

We are concerned about helping humans to learn and understand His superior Love, and learn how to love as He does. We certainly aren't focused on the values, capacities, etc, of the "natural man" as being the greatest accomplishment that a human can attain. Nor are we interested in justifying mankind based on those purely human concepts.

Please focus your on your OWN word above: may

Yes, at times, our good works may be only superficially good. However, that doesn't justify us NOT attempting to perform good works. And it doesn't even begin to address the responsibility each of us have to repent (change), pray, give to the poor, and strive to obey God in all things.

Now, I am sorry if I misrepresent you, but it appears to me that you are saying that mankind is incapable of doing good (based on a very few scriptures), and that we shouldn't even try. It appears that you are saying that since Jesus taught that: "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" that we should all be poor in spirit if we want to get to heaven.

However, you fail to keep in mind the rest of the Beatitudes. They are all dynamic! Do things! Be meek. Hunger and thirst after righteousness. Be merciful. Become pure in heart.

Jesus was all about doing. What he taught was all about becoming.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matt 5:16) Does this sound like he is telling us to not do good works, or to only do them in secret?

Yes, he said to refrain from trying to get attention when we are fasting, or to refrain from saying our personal prayers in public for public acclaim. And we certainly shouldn't be going around and telling everyone how much money we have given to the poor. These are all examples, not of doing good works, but of seeking the pride and glory of the world.

We have a living prophet of God. God has opened up the heavens, and given new scripture that reaffirms His teachings in the Bible, bears witness of the Bible, and bears additional witness of Jesus Christ. God has restored the ordinances that Had previously given, that have been corrupted over time. God has given the Holy Ghost, to bear witness of Him, of His work, and of His will. All these things also bear witness that we can and MUST do good, of our own will! Otherwise, we are being disobedient to God.

I have to leave.

I suggest, that if you would like to continue this discussion, you make a LOT less assumptions about what Mormons believe, and start asking questions. Your posts sound an awful lot like accusations, and not very much like discussions.

NightHawk

Lds Or Christian?

I read from the first post and I just wanted to share my humble views on this subject. First of all let me say I'm a LDS member and I'm grateful to Nighhawlk, Tena and Farseer and others who have shared their thoughts and feelings in such a wonderful way.

Sanctificatn, first of with all respect, let me tell you that is obvious you don't know much about the LDS Church and the reason I'm saying this is because of several mistakes and assumptions you have made in your posts, is also obvious that your interpretation of the Bible is quiet strange in my opinion because if its true that men are incapable to do good then this scripture in Genesis is a lie then: "And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" now you may say he's talking about our physical aspect but it's not about this only, we have characteristics of our Heavenly Father and even though we cannot be compared to him because he's perfect, it doesn't mean we are not capable to do good!

Look at Matthew 7, when it talks about 'by their fruits ye shall know them' because a good tree cannot reap evil fruit!.
In Acts 10: 35 " But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him". More clear than that it's impossible! Men have the ability to do good.
More? James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin
I can go on and on and on and on with LOTS of verses in the Scriptures where encourages us to do good but let me finish with my favourite one:

"My little children, let us NOT love in WORD, neither in TONGUE, but in DEED and in TRUTH"

The only way to show to Heavenly Father that we love him and that we are grateful for all the blessings we receive is NOT by 'preaching nicely' or by just make an analysis of the scriptures or by words only like this scripture says BUT by our deeds...OUR GOOD WORKS, the same ones that Jesus Christ, our Saviour, did when he was on the Earth. We are capable to do good, we are capable to do much better than we are. I love the LDS Church in the sense that is not a Church for people who are in the comfort zone "Just believe and you're saved", its a Church who continually encourage us to do good, to 'let our light shine', to give service to others, to try our best in obey the commandments of God. We as individuals are not perfect, but instead of this becoming a wall for us, and just expect mercy because of our weakness, it becomes a good chance to break that wall down and try to do our best and show Heavely Father how much we really love him because he said "If he love me, keep my
commandments" .

And then with a clear concious that we have tried to live according to God's commandments he may say "Well done, good and faithful servant: thou has been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord".

Edited: FarSeer on 8th Mar, 2004 - 12:53am

Lds Christian - Page 3

In my church we are taught that we also have the gift of Free Agency -- even after we have learned of the will of God and been "given the free gift of His Spirit that enables us to have righteous desires and strengths," we still have to CHOOSE to do the right thing.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
(Old Testament | Joshua 24:15)

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:78)

To your previous quote, I add emphasis: "To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me." col. 1:29 -- He gives us the energy, but we must choose to act on it and use it.

As the scripture was quoted previously, "they have their reward." What works I do are between the Lord and me. I'm not sure why you would bring this up in this discussion. Besides, didn't you suddenly switch your position from not having to do works to doing works? Or am I mistaken?

5 And faith, hope, charity and love, with an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 4:5)

What I hope will come from this is that you will see that perhaps we have more in common than you originally thought. We worship and praise the same God, we have the same Holy Bible, we recognize the same Saviour who has atoned and died for us all. I really don't understand why you'd want to argue this point. I wish you peace in your heart in your search for Truth.

Roz

Edited: FarSeer on 8th Mar, 2004 - 1:42am

Lds Christian Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

sanctificatn most of your post loses me in the context of this thread, but this one point you make is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning so I am at a loss to know what you disagree with.

This is what I said and I believe FarSeer said as well much earlier in this thread. Maybe we weren't clear in our posts?