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Lds Or Christian? - Page 4

Let's read what I previously presented, with direct scripture:"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the laws requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." Now God has something new to say next in this matter: "A man is not a Jew if he is only one
outwardly; nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." And then we get back to our starting point in the next sentence: "Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." rom 2:25-29

Regarding this secret, unseen circumcision within the confines of the heart, that is not tainted by the opportunity of receiving praise from men: "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and soul, and live." deut 30:6

In 2:25-27, it describes how even if a man does a good work, if his heart is not pure, it is as though he never did the work in the first place. But notice it also says in 26 that those who have the right heart alone, will be considered as though they had carried out that work in the flesh. Wow! Our heart's attitude accomplishes all the law's requirements without the need for works. In 29 it says that a man is a child of God if he is one inwardly, period. God acknowledges that there are two realms to obedience; the heart (hidden, inner-man), and the flesh (plain, outward-man). Which one has the authority to make us right? The inner. Not a combination--the inner alone. What then is the role for fleshly works? "circumcision has value," it says, but we can discuss this more when we read about Abraham in Rom 4, Gen 15, and James 2.

So when we do that good thing that allows us to gain entry to heaven, what realm are we commanded to attain it in? The secret, the hidden. Why? Because Jesus warned us about the corruption that comes through falling to the temptation of not hiding our good works from men. If we want Him to praise us at judgment, we should "go into our room, close the door and pray to our Father who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." I know that God is pleased to have the opportunity to lift us up, instead of seeing us lift our own selves up. And I rest so hard on knowing and believing that God will lift me up. It is His promise, and if He promised it, then I better believe, it will happen whether I want it to or not.

But to address this idea that God will lift us up as promised in Ezek and Jer as I have already quoted, regardless if we want Him to or not, we need to go look at those chapters I mentioned previously--rom 4, gen 15, james 2. They will answer Tenaheff's two other ideas: "I can decide today to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then next year murder someone in cold blood, never repent of that murder and then think I should have the Lord's peace with me. Do you? It sounds like that is what you are saying. Do you agree that the Bible says faith without works is dead? James 2:20 and James 2:26."

I had to post the rest of my thought, and now that it is finished, there is still those last two questions of hers to think about.

I wish peace to you all, FarSeer, LDSForever, and Nighthawk. I know that some of the things I have said seem quite strange. That is a characteristic you will find consistent in your discourses with me. Even though there are very similar aspects between our two religions, they are very different in values. We both seek to imitate Christ. The discrepancy comes when we examine the means by which we serve Him. You all are right--when I said that I am confident in my analysis of a greater experience of peace lacking in the LDS, I did not mean to suggest that I knew the LDS doctrine all that well, nor especially your practices. What I am confident in is that through a year of talking with various LDS members about my opinions and thoughts, I can distinguish the differences between us. I can articulate it. After all, haven't you all written back to me insisting that it is odd of me to suggest that men are incapable of obedience? So I am able to communicate it and this is the best I can do, but I invite, no, implore you, to correct me and teach me what I don't seem to grasp.

Christian Lds

Here's the actual scripture from the KJV:
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
(New Testament | Romans 2:26)
That says nothing about having the "right heart alone." It's keeping the law, which means doing the work.

Even using your NIV interpretation, it does not say anything close to your presentation of it.
26 If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they are circumcised?
They are still doing the work.

We are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

See my previous post regarding free agency.

Roz

Lds Or Christian? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Farseer, keeping the law's requirements still does not mean us doing the work. I will give you a great reason why but first I want to show you that the scriptures are not thinking about it like you do (at least from what I read, but still, let me know). Righteousness came by faith. We become keepers of the law through identification with Jesus Christ, not by our own nature and efforts.

Now, what are works for? Are they necessary to please God for exaultation? No, we have already seen a couple reasons why that is not true. Works were designed to gain treasure in heaven; they flow naturally from a person who has a faith that is saving. But they cannot secure any foundation for righteousness at judgment. Let's examine:

Genesis 15:4-6 "Then the word of the Lord came to him: 'This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.' He took him outside and said, 'Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them.' THen he said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.' Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to Him as righteousness."

rom 4:23-24 "The words 'it was credited to him' were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him, who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" 1 cor 1:30-31

Abram was credited righteousness, and called God's friend, 20-30-some years before He asked Abraham to offer up Issac on the altar--well before His righteous works. In fact, the simple fact that he heard and believed God's promise, is what faith-righteousness [what I preach] is completely composed of:

"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, 'So shall your offspring be.' Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what He had promised. This is why 'it was credited to him as righteousness.'" rom 4:18-22

Now you will see an example of someone who happens to be the father of our faith, who was righteous in God's sight through faith alone, because belief is sealed by God with a promise, that we will indeed have good works.

I don't have room to quote Rom 4:1-16. But it asks in 9 and 10, under what circumstances was righteousness credited to him? Was it after or before he was circumcised in the flesh, as commanded by God? It was before. Why? Because as it parallels in rom 2 in its discussion about circumcision, "circumcision has value" if you are inwardly circumcised. If you have only an outward circumcision, it is worthless, as 4:14 says "For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless". We know that not everyone is a descendant of Abraham--only those who have the faith of Abraham. Then it says "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." It describes Abraham's offspring being of both types, both being acceptable: those who happen to be circumcised outwardly but also having his kind of faith inwardly, and those who only have his faith with no physical circumcision.

Proof: 4:11-12 "So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."

So faith is the key. And here is God's reason why it is acceptable to have faith apart from works: "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." 4:11 Compare this with rom 2:26 "If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?" And who are they who are considered those who "keep the laws requrirements?" It is those who are "righteous," the very righteousness credited to Abraham at the point of his belief.

Go back and read rom 4:23-24 and 1 cor 1:30-31.

Now let's read James 2. James is not addressing the means of entering heaven. Why? Because the book is addressed to the church from start to finish; the body of believers, his brothers (3:1, 2:1, 1:2, 5:19). The other reason why it is not addressing the means of entering heaven is because the whole section on faith and works starts with this topical question "Can such faith save him?" (2:14) Apparently there are different kinds of faith, which is easy to grasp as he talks about the beliefs of demons and so on. And apparently it is possible to be "saved" (meaning more than just resurrection to me, but all of the promises God has ever made to anyone in the bible, but we can discuss this) by a faith, because that is why he brings it up. The other main topic he discusses is "do you want evidence that faith without works is useless?" 2:20. So we are discussing the futility of a faith that proves to be deedless, not that all kinds of faith is useless to save us. James says about Abraham that he received righteousness because he offered up Issac, and that this work made his faith complete, because faith and deeds work together. It says "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that Abraham was justified by what he does and not by faith alone." Translation = righteousness comes from your work, too. What is to be sanctified? It is to be made holy, in word and deed. When we do righteous things, we gain rewards. There are crowns that will be bestowed on us during the testing of our works; there are five crowns. Works matter in heaven. But works won't help get us to heaven. When we add holiness to our lives through sanctification, it doesn't mean that we are not yet already made holy, because we are made holy through faith.

Page 4 Christian Lds

Paul the apostle says in almost everyone of his letters that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Therefore, the Catholics faith in Jesus being the saviour saves them, all the different sects of the Protestant church believe in the saving grace of Jesus also which saves them, LDS church also believes in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Therefore, you are all christians. Here in lies the problems with christianity, all of the sects of christianity are so busy telling everyone else that they are not really saved that they lose sight of the main calling of Jesus which was to preach the gospel! At what point did Jesus say to preach the condemnation of the other sects of christianity? Surely God can right the wrongs within His own church! You are all christians, you should be showing brotherly love towards each other and working for that one common goal instead of arguing over semantics! After growing up in the church, I can tell you that this is a big issue for people to get over, its hard to get past the in fighting.

On that note, I would like to say that the LDS people, and the one Catholic moderator in this forum do great justice to the calling of Jesus by choosing (for the most part) to not condemn or judge people based on their beliefs. Truly these types of Christians (if following the Bible) would bring more into heaven with them than those that are to busy condemning to see that the gay person next door isn't just some sinner, he is a person in need of salvation!

Edited: konquererz on 22nd Feb, 2005 - 10:40am

Christian Lds

I am not sure I believe in God, but why do I see several posters saying LDS are not christians? It looks like LDS believe they are christians. Isn't that what makes them christians? How can someone else be christian if they are condemning those who also claim to be christian instead of focusing on doing good to others?

Lds Or Christian?

That is an excellent point! Part of the problem within the church today is the quickness to disregard other members of the christian church and question their salvation. Instead of not judging and working together to spread the gospel, they are to busy saying that other sects of the church of Christ are not christians. Protestants, Catholics, and LDS all have one key that is common, they believe that their salvation comes through Jesus Christ. By Pauls statements, not one sect can deny this as a pre-requisite to christian dome and thus salvation according to the Bible. Saying LDS is not christian goes against the very core of what Paul the apostle was trying to teach. When the church began, there where no different sects, only the spiritual church in Christ. To bad most christians fail to see that today.

Lds Christian - Page 4

The believers were first called 'Christian' (little Christs) at Antioch... So Brother Luke says in Acts.

Now why were they called Christian? Was it their doctrine... or was it that they identified or acted like Christ? I think it had more to do with how they acted because few of the non-believers judged them based on doctrine because they probably didn't know what they believed.

Now there is this controversy of the term Christian. I heard an old LDS fellow in priesthood get a little impatient over the whole matter because in his day the word 'Christian' was associated with those who were not Latter Day Saints.

I got his point. I won't argue the point. Generically... I am just as much a 'Christian' because I love Jesus as I am a Latter Day Saint... because I am a Saint by the Bible's definition and I live in the Latter Days.

Kinda scarry isn't it...

Lds Christian Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

I grew up as LDS and had never considered myself christian. I remember when I was about 12 someone asked me if I was christian. I told them, no, I'm a mormon. I still have that mentality sometimes, but not as much. I've always connected christianity with being born again. But as I've read some of the post's in this thread, I'm starting to realize that isn't the case at all.