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Close Topic OptionsMormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney - Page 2 of 7
QUOTE Your words; Indeed. And I would reform - Page 2 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 13th Jul, 2011 - 5:26am
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Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney - Page 2
I think the thing to remember is the the LoC is not an economic system. It's merely a system of caring for the needy. The LoC does not dictate production or price. It does not dictate education or career. In the LoC one can accumulate wealth and capital. It is ultimately up to the individual to decide what is surplus and the bishop is not necessarily going to ask for 100% of it.
There is nothing in LDS doctrine that allows or provides for forced welfare and the government dole is excoriated. I DO see Christ voting down food stamps and all the programs you listed. I see nothing in the Nibley quotes that gives power to a government over an individual to decide how to help the poor or how much. These things are a false compassion which remove agency and personal responsibility from us.
I generally agree with Nibley regarding how our mindset should be. Nibley had some good things to say but ultimately, if it didn't get published by the Church, it's not doctrine and Nibley was somewhat out in left field, the only thing moderating him was the doctrine of the Church which is conservative.
It's popular to attack corporations but it is corporations that employ us and create wealth. Poor people don't create jobs. Nor do they create wealth unless they are working and without capital to invest, they don't create very much wealth.
So yes, I generally do agree with policies that benefit corporations and businesses. I do not generally agree with corporate bailouts or welfare. Corporations and individuals must be allowed to fail or we don't improve.
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Post Date: 13th Jul, 2011 - 12:10am / Post ID: #
Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
I guess really it all comes down to interpretations in the end and we may have to agree to disagree. When in doubt I generally go back to the main source, the Scriptures. Christ had a lot to say about greed and wealth and the the poor, I see nothing he has said being in line with the republican party and even less with the tea party. Personally I can't see him starving innocent kids. Or stealing medical care from the elderly they paid for. I have a real difficult time with that.
Did you know ZCMI was set up to sell goods to LDS members at COST? It was not set up as a capitalist store, it was undermined under the prophet to be so. Pres. Young did not approve of Darwinist capitalism. He condemned the merchants who sold goods for as much as they could. He felt they should have sold for as little as they could.
The LoC should come before any economic system, and should be in our minds as we vote and work to shape the government. We don't mix religion and politics in this country however, our moral standards and the promises we have made to put Christ and his work should direct our every action, especially in government.
I have heard that the country will stand as long as we stay righteous. It is falling and greed and money is at the root and cause of our sins. Putting corporations and the rich above the least of these.
I have worked since I was 12 and always for small businesses or people that have contributed and done more for the community around me than Walmart or any huge thing has. Corps are monsters not saviors.
Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney Studies Doctrine Mormon
Universal Healthcare against LDS principles? Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense. We're all entitled to health coverage regardless of our income and we're all children of God who deserve to be treated with kindness and dignity so I don't agree with the person that said universal healthcare is against LDS principles. It's illogical.
Page 2 Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
QUOTE Did you know ZCMI was set up to sell goods to LDS members at COST? It was not set up as a capitalist store, it was undermined under the prophet to be so. Pres. Young did not approve of Darwinist capitalism. He condemned the merchants who sold goods for as much as they could. He felt they should have sold for as little as they could.
Didn't work as the members rebelled against it and it wasn't economically viable. There was a huge incident when the Church commanded the members to buy the new fangled washing machines from ZCMI at $50 when they could be had mail order for $35.
It's notions like that which probably brought down various attempts to live the United Order. And it's likely why the Church discourages looking at these early attempts as models for how such would work and why LDS doctrine is that the LoC is not to be confused with any sort of "Christian Socialism".
QUOTE The LoC should come before any economic system, and should be in our minds as we vote and work to shape the government.
It's obvious the LoC can't work unless it's within a free market capitalist system. Such a system is also spiritually analogous to God's own system of salvation which is free market capitalism as you can see from the scriptures. Degree of salvation is determined by productivity. We lay up in store treasures in heaven and the Master expects us to invest our talents and increase them. Etc.
QUOTE We don't mix religion and politics in this country
Impossible. They are inseparably connected. Religion (or lack thereof) is a major determining factor for one's political philosophy.
QUOTE however, our moral standards and the promises we have made to put Christ and his work should direct our every action, especially in government.
Yep. See?
QUOTE Universal Healthcare against LDS principles? Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense. We're all entitled to health coverage regardless of our income
Healthcare is not a right. You can't force people to pay for it or accept it. That is why it's against LDS principles.
QUOTE and we're all children of God who deserve to be treated with kindness and dignity
Sure. But are you familliar with the Church's definition of "equal"?
QUOTE so I don't agree with the person that said universal healthcare is against LDS principles. It's illogical.
Actually, it's highly logical and rational.
Edited: bcspace on 13th Jul, 2011 - 3:26amPost Date: 13th Jul, 2011 - 3:54am / Post ID: #
Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
Healthcare should be a right. Christ obviously thought it was appropriate or he wouldn't have bothered healing people, and poor people at that. Romina has it spot on. If the super rich who are running the smear campaign against it don't like, they should be able to buy their own, why not. But how it is run now is a terrible system that takes advantage of every working person, and leave many without help. That is wrong.
You are equating salvation with money? *Sputter* Can you even hear how wrong that sounds? I mean sure, you can buy anything in this world with money, can't you. But it's not of God. I'm going to quote The dear Professor Hugh Nibley again, just because it's fresh in my mind;
QUOTE Just as the order of Zion began with Adam in the garden, the rival system is just as old. It, too, was proposed to Adam, and he rejected it, while his son Cain accepted it. The plan Satan proposed to Adam was to put everything in this glorious and beautiful world up for sale. You could have anything in this world for money, but you had to have money. This launched a scramble that has gone on ever since Cain slew Abel, his brother, for gain; and he, says the Pearl of Great Price, "gloried in that which he had done, saying: I am free; surely the flocks of my brother falleth into my hands" (Moses 5:33). And this vigorous competition has imparted an air of dynamism and excitement to the scene that some find most attractive. What would the human drama be to us without an element of conflict and competition? We would find it insufferably dull. Who would exchange this for the pale and bloodless activities of Eden? In the Book of Mormon, the Nephites, the Jaredites, and the Jews at Jerusalem all walked straight to their certain destruction because they were helpless to conceive of acting in any other way. They were so completely captivated by one way of life that they could not conceive of any other. Laman and Lemuel saw nothing but visionary insanity in the teachings of their father and of their brother Nephi (1 Nephi 2:11). When Mormon suggested wisdom and restraint to the Nephites, they became hysterical and furious with him (Moroni 9:4-5). They were so hypnotized by the necessity of what they were doing that they didn't even let the fear of death deter them, he says. The Jaredites fought to the last man for nothing, rather than change their ways. They were reduced to the nightmare of private shelters and total insecurity, and finally total destruction. This is what the Greeks called ate, the point of no return, beyond which it becomes impossible to change, and only one solution to a problem remains possible. You simply have to play out the play to the end the way you've been doing it.
Guess what? We will never earn salvation, nope can't be done. We are told that. Sure we have to do all we can, work our hearts out to be better and better (not richer) people, and then we get the shiny new bike. But we never can buy that bike on our own can we. It is all due to our Savior, this world is a gift from our Father, they made eternal progression possible and there isn't one single thing you can give or buy them to making worth it a part from trying to grow and be better.
Edit: I forgot my favorite quote! So here it is!
QUOTE "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it."
By ~ Stephen Colbert
So you haven't explained to me why your Savior wants to take food from small children, to take education from them and throw middle class and under elderly under the bus. If you can explain to me why it is in God's interest that 25% of US kids should be hungrier, I'll concede the debate.
Edited: Miriavas on 13th Jul, 2011 - 3:58amMormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney
QUOTE Healthcare should be a right.
There's no Gospel link to socialized medicine.
QUOTE Christ obviously thought it was appropriate or he wouldn't have bothered healing people, and poor people at that.
He used the Priesthood power, not the government.
QUOTE If the super rich who are running the smear campaign against it don't like, they should be able to buy their own, why not.
The "super rich" tend to understand the deleterious effects of socialist programs on the economy and the reduction of available wealth for all because they're the ones who create it. However, it is popular for the Left to blame all problems on "the rich" instead of looking to themselves for solutions or the cause of problems. All the Left knows how to do is steal wealth because they assume that's how "the rich" obtained it. They know nothing of economics or how wealth is created in the first place.
QUOTE You are equating salvation with money? *Sputter*
Yes I am. What have you to say regarding the scriptural examples I gave? I assumed you'd be familiar with them. Should I give actual reference however?
QUOTE Can you even hear how wrong that sounds?
Was Jesus wrong when he gave the parable of the talents?
QUOTE I mean sure, you can buy anything in this world with money, can't you.
In this world? Sure. Satan does tell the truth from time to time.
QUOTE I'm going to quote The dear Professor Hugh Nibley again, just because it's fresh in my mind;
Nibley doesn't seem to be proposing any type of socialist order. That's the beauty of God's capitalist system. It's completely neutral and therefore compatible with agency and personal responsibility required for the Atonement to work in our lives. Any good or evil that comes is brought by ourselves in such a system. Any other system prevents us from one or the other and then essentially becomes Satan's plan because it removes agency.
QUOTE Guess what? We will never earn salvation, nope can't be done.
Never said we could. But we DO earn our degree of salvation. Guess what? If you can't handle money, you won't inherit the true riches according to the words of Jesus (Luke 16:9-11).
QUOTE By ~ Stephen Colbert
Published by the Church (required for doctrine)? Plus, by what method does he propose that we help the poor? The Lord's way or the tyranny of socialism?
QUOTE So you haven't explained to me why your Savior wants to take food from small children, to take education from them and throw middle class and under elderly under the bus. If you can explain to me why it is in God's interest that 25% of US kids should be hungrier, I'll concede the debate.
Standard leftwing political talking points that are unsubstantiated as usual. Yes, all the Left knows about wealth is the theft of it (their modus operandi) and you've just illustrated that perfectly. Show me where I have said Jesus wants such things and I will conceed the debate.
Edited: bcspace on 13th Jul, 2011 - 4:43amPost Date: 13th Jul, 2011 - 5:20am / Post ID: #
Mormons Jon Huntsman Mitt Romney - Page 2
Your words;
QUOTE I DO see Christ voting down food stamps and all the programs you listed.
1/4 of children in the US live in poverty, they rely on the food stamps, and other programs. Ergo you said Christ want those children to go hungry. You see him voting down SS and Medicare that was promised to the people who paid into them. It's all right there. You either love your neighbor or love your bank account.
You don't like the welfare system? Reform it, don't through it out. You are responsible for the poor of this country and this world. Unless a person can get their SUV through a needle they should probably soften their hearts. And while the Democrats are far from perfect, their hearts are much softer than the GOP and especially the TEAs.
Mormons Jon Huntsman Mitt Romney Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2
QUOTE Your words;
Indeed. And I would reform by abolishing those programs competely. But the question remains:
Where did I say that....
QUOTE my Savior wants to take food from small children, to take education from them and throw middle class and under elderly under the bus.
and that
QUOTE it is in God's interest that 25% of US kids should be hungrier
?
Your words.
TOPIC: Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney