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QUOTE I think Paul says it pretty well. A - Page 2 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 19th Jul, 2011 - 10:32pm
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Mormons & The Trinity - Page 2
QUOTE While the Church takes no position on evolution or creationism, evolution itself can be completely compatible with LDS doctrine without modification.
I actually agree, having said that since the Church takes no position I find it tends to lead towards the idea of NOT evolution.
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Trinity and Mormons
There are indeed examples of apostles and prophets being against evolution but there are other positive examples as well.
For example, after the 1909 statement, which does not preclude evolution between, BH Roberts and James E Talmadge would compete and debate against the younger Joseph Fielding Smith in favor of evolution, specifically the notion of preAdamites. This all came to a head in 1931 when the presidency of Heber J Grant took on the issues and ended up releasing a statement of neutrality on the issue which reads in part:
QUOTE The statement made by Elder Smith that the existence of pre-Adamites is not a doctrine of the Church is true. It is just as true that the statement: "There were not pre-Adamites upon the earth", is not a doctrine of the Church. Neither side of the controversy has been accepted as a doctrine at all.
Both parties make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views.
....
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the people of the world. Leave Geology, Biology, Archaeology and Anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race."
First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931
Both parties make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views.
....
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the people of the world. Leave Geology, Biology, Archaeology and Anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race."
First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931
Beacause of this, later statements against evolution by certain church leaders have often been moderated or canceled.
Edited: bcspace on 19th Jul, 2011 - 6:37pmMormons & The Trinity Studies Doctrine Mormon
QUOTE Beacause of this, later statements against evolution by certain church leaders have often been moderated or canceled.
It has been always my understanding that the Church frowns upon the concept of evolution, thanks for sharing those quotes. I found these:
QUOTE In the world another theory of how things began is popularly held and widely taught. This theory, that of organic evolution, was generally developed from the writings of Charles Darwin. It puts forth different ideas concerning how life began and where man came from. In relation to this theory, the following statements should help you understand what the Church teaches about the Creation and the origin of man. . . .[quoting Joseph Fielding Smith] "You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so. ... Then Adam, and by that I mean the first man, was not capable of sin. He could not transgress, and by doing so bring death into the world; for, according to this theory, death had always been in the world. If, therefore, there was no fall, there was no need of an atonement, hence the coming into the world of the Son of God as the Savior of the world is a contradiction, a thing impossible. (Old Testament Manual)
QUOTE The greatest heresy in the sectarian world ... Is that God is a spirit nothingness which fills the immensity of space,and that creation came through evolutionary processes. (Bruce R. Mc Conkie, Ensign, 1980)
And President Hinckley:
QUOTE None of us ... Knows enough. The learning process is an endless process. We must read, we must observe, we must assimilate, and we must ponder that to which we expose our minds. I believe in evolution, not organic evolution, as it is called, but in the evolution of the mind, the heart, and the soul of man. I believe in improvement. I believe in growth.
Page 2 Trinity and Mormons
QUOTE (Old Testament Manual)
In the OT manual in that very section, it does present a different viewpoint from a Mr Coffin who's views were invalidated decades ago by science. In addition, usually when evolution is bashed by the Church it's not actually evolution they're bashing but the atheist interpretation of evolution.
There is nothing in evolution that precludes the existence of God or that man in created in His image. Evolution even teaches that like produces like, that one species does not give birth to another species.
Also in that manual, a little above the section you are reading from, it is stated that the Church has no position on the age of the earth, a little tidbit that also goes against the Creationist view.
QUOTE (Bruce R. Mc Conkie, Ensign, 1980)
Not a valid reference (that can be checked). BRM between moderated his stance on evolution in his Seven Deadly Heresies speech in which, while he still couldn't see how evolution could work, as long as someone could reconcile it with Church doctrine, it was probably okay.
QUOTE And President Hinckley:
No actual reference but Hinckley was actualy neutral on the subject with regard to doctrine. If your quote here is from a doctrinal source, then the doctrine would merely be that his belief is such and such.
Edited: bcspace on 19th Jul, 2011 - 7:15pmTrinity and Mormons
QUOTE Not a valid reference (that can be checked)
I took a little time to research these. Here is the link for the statement of Bruce R. Mc Conkie (official LDS site):
Source 4
The quote of Gordon B. Hinckley comes from "Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley", p. 298.
Mormons & The Trinity
Thanks for that.
But the Church has moderated it's position quite a bit since then. For example, the famous ETB quote about the Book of Mormon combating heresies such as evolution has been cut down to remove evolution form the list. The Church republished the 1909 statement in 2002 iirc which does not preclude evolution. And, if you read the transcript, here is Russel M Nelson recently being corrected by his junior companion on the issue of evolution:
QUOTE The church has said it neither promotes nor opposes capital punishment. It says it "opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience." It does not oppose removing a medical patient from "artificial means of life support." Different denominations deal differently with questions about life's origins and development. Conservative denominations tend to have more trouble with Darwinian evolution. Does the church have an official position on this topic?
Nelson: We believe that God is our creator and that he has created other forms of life. It's interesting to me, drawing on my 40 years experience as a medical doctor, how similar those species are. We developed open-heart surgery, for example, experimenting on lower animals simply because the same creator made the human being. We owe a lot to those lower species. But to think that man evolved from one species to another is, to me, incomprehensible.
Why is that?
Nelson: Man has always been man. Dogs have always been dogs. Monkeys have always been monkeys. It's just the way genetics works.
Wickman: The Scripture describing the Lord as the creator of all of these things says very little about how it was done. I don't know of anybody in the ranks of the First Presidency and the Twelve [Apostles] who has ever spent much time worrying about this matter of evolution.
Nelson: We have this doctrine, recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 101: "When the Lord shall come again, he shall reveal all things, things which have passed, hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth by which it was made and the purpose and the end thereof, things most precious, things that are above, things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, upon the earth, and in heaven." So as I close that quotation, I realize that there are just some things that we won't know until that day.
Nelson: We believe that God is our creator and that he has created other forms of life. It's interesting to me, drawing on my 40 years experience as a medical doctor, how similar those species are. We developed open-heart surgery, for example, experimenting on lower animals simply because the same creator made the human being. We owe a lot to those lower species. But to think that man evolved from one species to another is, to me, incomprehensible.
Why is that?
Nelson: Man has always been man. Dogs have always been dogs. Monkeys have always been monkeys. It's just the way genetics works.
Wickman: The Scripture describing the Lord as the creator of all of these things says very little about how it was done. I don't know of anybody in the ranks of the First Presidency and the Twelve [Apostles] who has ever spent much time worrying about this matter of evolution.
Nelson: We have this doctrine, recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 101: "When the Lord shall come again, he shall reveal all things, things which have passed, hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth by which it was made and the purpose and the end thereof, things most precious, things that are above, things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, upon the earth, and in heaven." So as I close that quotation, I realize that there are just some things that we won't know until that day.
Not at 100 post yet so I can't give a link. But this is from the Church's newsroom about a Pew Forum interview.
Post Date: 19th Jul, 2011 - 9:18pm / Post ID: #
Mormons & Trinity - Page 2
QUOTE (1 Corinthians 15: 39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
I think Paul says it pretty well. A species will always retain its species
Yes there are variations within the species,(polar bear, koala bear, panda bear etc.), but the species always remains the same species, otherwise it will stop being able to reproduce (Mule for example), or will revert back to the original species.
Yes in the case of scientific manipulation there are exceptions but they are natural and have to be created, not by the natural laws of generation.
I believe there is a middle ground to this conversation, such as adaptation versus evolution. Paul and the Bible speaks specifically against evolution, yet even men adapt to their environments.
Message Edited...Persephone: Please use the Quote Tags as instructed here. When you do not use these tags source material that is not your own may appear to be yours when it is not. The Source of your Quote should also be provided. See our Constructive Posting Policy.
Mormons & Trinity Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2
QUOTE I think Paul says it pretty well. A species will always retain its species
Yet again evolution does not teach that dogs give birth to cats or monkeys give birth to homo sapiens. From generation to generation, there is no change in species. It's only when one looks from one generation one in in the future that you can see a change (via natural or human selection) in species.
So doctrine is not contradicted by evolution on this point (or any other).
Edited: bcspace on 19th Jul, 2011 - 10:32pm TOPIC: Mormons & The Trinity