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Is All Well In Zion? - Page 3

I am not sure this is an accurate statement. They were poor by our standards, but I if you study the times in which they lived, I think many of them were actually successful businessmen. This allowed them to follow the Savior and still provide for themselves and their families.

I agree with much of what has been said here. We definately place too much emphasis on what people do outside of the Church when judging their worthiness inside the Church. I would like to point out though that this isn't only at the local level. How many ordinary men are in the Quoram of the Twelve. Are they not all very successful men as well.

It is possible at that level it is not because there are no men worthy from lesser stations in life, but those worthy men would not be able to stop working, serve the Church full time and still provide adequately for their families. I think one of the reasons we are so strongly urged to remain debt free is so that if the Church wants to call us on a mission of some sort, we are in a position to be able to afford the necessary loss of income because we don't need to pay a bunch of credit cards, etc. How many ordinary, lower income people take the admonition to live debt free seriously?

Zion Well Is

Is all well in Zion? Yes, all is well in Zion. (Are you now going to pronounce a wo upon me, dubhdara?) I'm referring to the Lord's definition of Zion, not Satan's definition. The Lord says that Zion is the pure in heart, meaning the sanctified members of His church. As the scriptures say, it shall be well with the sanctified (the bona fide saints) at the last day. As long as they remain sanctified and purified, retaining a remission of their sins from day to day, all is and shall be well with them. On the other hand, Satan's definition of Zion is the unsanctified members of the church. He uses the term to mean the general membership of the church, not just the sanctified (the saints.) It is in this sense that he is referring to all being well with these people. The scriptures says:

The devil doesn't care about sanctification. He tries to get everyone to be concerned with money (carnal security), hence when the members of the church are prosperous, as pertaining to their riches, but not prosperous as pertaining to the gifts of the Spirit (no speaking in tongues, no tongues of fire, no interpretation of tongues, no working of miracles, no raising of the dead, no taking up poisonous serpents, no blind seeing, no deaf hearing, no dumb speaking, no lame walking, no drinking deadly poisons without harm, none of the listed signs of the true believer in Christ, no visions, no dreams, no interpretation of visions, no interpretation of dreams, no writing on the wall by the finger of God, no gift of the convincing word, no gift of the discernment of gifts, no diversities of operations, no differences of administration, no prophesying, no revelations, no discernment of spirits, no miraculous gifts of healing, no beholding of angels and ministering of spirits, no singing the song of redeeming love, no power in the priesthood, no translation, no conveyance by the Spirit, no casting out devils, no subduing principalities and powers, no standing in the presence of God, no breaking of bands, no dividing the earth, no defying the armies of nations, no drying up waters, no dividing the seas, no breaking up mountains, no delivery from depths of earth, no playing with wild beasts, no quenching the violence of fire, no turning the course of rivers, no turning the course of rivers, no tumbling prisons, no shaking the earth, no removing mountains, no gift of knowledge, no gift of wisdom, no gift of hope, no gift of exceedingly great faith, no gift of charity, no gift of seership, and in short, no baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, meaning that the members have to a large extent refused to sanctify themselves and have denied the powers of God available to the sanctified) he tells them that they are doing fine, that all is well as evidenced by their financial prosperity and thus they miss the mark and do not receive the fullness of the Gospel.

Satan's definition of Zion does not apply to the sanctified, for the sanctified are not lulled away into carnal security, for they care nothing about temporal concerns, being entirely focussed on the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost. It has been my experience that the unsanctified members of this church have bought into Satan's definition of Zion and not the Lord's. They believe that Zion is the general church membership and not that portion of it that are sanctified and are enjoying these gifts.

Nighthawk, you wrote: "I believe that the Church, as it is now constituted, is Telestial organization, designed to lift people from the Telestial sphere. Before, or during, the building of the city of Zion and the 2nd Coming of Christ, the Church will either be reorganized, or replaced, with a Terrestial organization, designed to lift people beyond the Terrestial sphere.

"When you consider that such things as the Baptism of Fire is a Telestial event, and that having your Calling and Election Made Sure is probably a Terrestial event, you might find that not very many people are even actively seeking the Terrestial sphere."

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Can you explain the above a little clearer, especially the part of the baptism of fire being a telestial event? Although you state that this is your belief, surely you must have picked up this thought from something in the scriptures. Please elaborate.

JB, you wrote: "I would much rather an ignorant Bishop that I could count on rather than an intellectual Bishop that really does not care." I'm sure you are talking about wordly knowledge and not spiritual knowledge, and I quite agree. However, although virtually every bishop I've had has been a very nice, caring soul, not one has been a scriptorian. I always seem to find myself in the awkward position of having to instruct the bishop concerning scriptural protocol. It would be nice to have a bishop who had both zeal and knowledge.

tenaheff, you wrote: "It is possible at that level it is not because there are no men worthy from lesser stations in life, but those worthy men would not be able to stop working, serve the Church full time and still provide adequately for their families." My understanding is that the GAs receive a salary, and not so little as you would think. So, even a janitor could become a GA, and especially a janitor would be able to provide for his family on the amount that the GAs receive. So, that logic doesn't add up.

Is All Well In Zion? Studies Doctrine Mormon

This may be true, I don't know if it is. One isn't called out of obscurity right into the Quorum of the Twelve. However, before they are called as GA's generally they have served in other full time positions such as Mission President, etc. Those positions, while they provide some living expenses, in my understanding, it is not really enough that the average person could just walk away from their career for three years with no savngs and be able to fulfill them. At what point do they begin to be well compensated for their time? How much does a Temple President get paid? A Mission President? A Regional Area Authority. My point is that at some point before you reach a "calling" that compensates you enough financially that you could live entirely on what the Church is providing, you must have been in some "calling" that required you to be able to support yourself while not working. Can one send their children to college on what they are given as living expenses while serving as a Mission President, for example if they have not acquired some wealth of their own?

Page 3 Zion Well Is

I am speaking about both, since a man could be well versed in the scriptures and not help the sick and the afflicted. Most of the time I see two kind of members - one that does not have much knowledge of the Gospel and is quite happy to be ignorant about it less they know more and have to make their lives more 'uncomfortable' or the ones that think they know so much that they become blinded to the simplicity of the work which involves such attributes as charity, kindness, meekness and so on. The Book of Mormon describes this as 'looking beyond the mark' because they seek for things which they could not understand.

Zion Well Is

I have found out that I was wrong about baptism. It has nothing to do with the Terrestial Kingdom.

Since we live in a telestial world, I think that through the Baptism of Fire, we can live a terrestial existence, in this world. Then, if we continue on and experience the Calling and Election, we can enjoy the benefits of a celestial existence, while in this life.

I don't have any scriptures at hand to support the idea that the present church will either change drastically or be replaced. But it follows a very telestial organizational pattern, in my opinion. If we are truly Zion (pure in heart) and each of us have received our calling and elections, then the whole concept of the church organization would be obsolete. Why would we have prophets and apostles over us, if each person is a prophet? Why would we have bishops and stake presidents responsible for our spiritual welfare, when each man is a true Patriarch?

Is All Well In Zion?

My understanding is that the Church exists only to provide us with the means of achieving the Celestial (baptism by water being the gateway, the Holy Ghost sanctifying us along the path and through the endowment second gate of exaltation, Celestial Marriage, according to our worthiness).

It is quite possible to engage and achieve a terrestrial state without the Church - this has been stated by Church leaders.

Of course, in reality, I would guess that many of us who join the Church and are not as valiant as we should be may in fact be at the terrestrial level with even the odd wander into the telestial.

My understanding is that the structural support for fatherhood (prophet, bishops etc.) exists on both the telestial and terrestrial sphere (i.e. during the Millennium also).

Wrote this quick - hope it makes sense!

Dubhdara.

Is Well Zion - Page 3

dubhdara, I agree with what you said.

Nighthawk, I'm still fuzzy on your logic. Perhaps it is a difference in definitions. Everything I've learned in this church indicates that all ordinances and workings of the Spirit are Celestial in nature. How do you figure "that through the Baptism of Fire, we can live a terrestial existence, in this world"? In other words, what is your definition of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost? And what is your definition of our calling and election being made sure?

JB, both kinds of members you describe are undesirable. To me, though, they can both be lumped together. In my view, there are only two types of members, the sanctified (saints) and the unsanctified (members.) The saints feast upon the words of Christ. To them, reading, studying, pondering the scriptures is a spiritual feast, a meal for their spirits. They look forward to the next opportunity to open the books and sup from their pages. To the members, it is a chore that needs to be accomplished daily. The saints, when they read the scriptures, receive revelations and the prophecies are unfolded to their sight. The members, when they read the scriptures, get more questions than answers and understand very little. The saints, after reading the scriptures, can't get the words out of their heads, and ponder upon those words continually. The members, after reading the scriptures, quickly forget what they've written. (The saints have the Spirit and the members don't, therefore, the Spirit, as Jesus said, brings all things to the remembrance of His saints.)

The reason for this big difference between the two groups is that to understand a prophecy, you must possess the spirit or gift of prophecy. To understand a revelation, you must possess the spirit or gift of revelation. To understand doctrine preached by the power of the Spirit, you must hear that doctrine by the power of the Spirit. Unless a person has the gifts and powers of the Spirit, the scriptures, to a large extent, are a great mystery to them. Although you may be an "intellectual" who has studied from all the scholarly works on the scriptures, if you are not relying exclusively on the Holy Ghost for the bulk of your understanding of the scriptures, you will not be "in the know."

Therefore, the member who is content with what they know and will not feast upon the words of Christ and sanctify themselves, are left in their unsanctified state and will not be enlarged. And the member who studies a great deal and thinks they know a lot about it, but who relies upon things other than the revelations and prophecies of the Holy Ghost to them personally (the Holy Ghost is called the spirit of prophecy and revelation), they, too, are left in their unenlarged state, with their limited knowledge.

We are sanctified by the reception of the Spirit, so said Jesus to the Nephites. Therefore, if a person is in the dark about the doctrine, it is because they have not received the Spirit. The Lord also said that if ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach. In other words, only the sanctified should teach the gospel. I wonder how many missionaries are sanctified as opposed to unsanctified?

The majority of bishops I've known are not well versed in the scriptures, yet they've all, to a great extent, been wonderful, caring men. Not everybody has a photographic memory and can remember everything that is found in the scriptures, so this doesn't mean that these men were not sanctified. Perhaps they do, in fact, study the word of the Lord every day. So what, then, is the determining factor in sanctification? How does one know when someone is sanctified? Remember, just works alone isn't enough. There are lots of people in this world who do lots a wonderful works who aren't sanctified, for they've never been baptised and have never received the Holy Ghost, which is what sanctifies.

All in all, the unfortunate thing is that it doesn't require a lot to obtain sanctification. It is actually a pretty simple thing. As simple as getting baptised by water. We just need to believe it can be done and then do it. It is my belief that the members do not sanctify themselves and become saints because they are of the opinion that sanctification is a long term goal, requiring years of effort on their part. They believe this because they have not read the scriptures, and if so, they do not understand them.

Is Well Zion Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

Buggeyes, what you have written seems good, but you miss the element of what I am most concerned and that is what comes from actually doing. I think this is the most important and forgotten element in the general membership. I have experienced this time and time again. Here is a basic example: We attend a meeting about 'Caring for the Needy'. In this meeting we learn of all the scriptural reasons for this, we also learn policy and so on. We learn that there should be a Welfare committee formed. So we plan to do this. A week passes by - it is not brought up again. Maybe a month goes by and then someone says that we need to form the committee we discussed a month ago, so we do. Then in the meeting we discuss people that have needs and ways we would like to help them - we adjourn. A month passes, we meet again - we discuss that we were busy and did not have time to followup on anything, we once again plan to meet again to discuss welfare. Get my point? I see so many interested in meetings, but not in feeding the poor, visiting the sick and afflicted. There seems to be more excitement about sitting as members and discussing more than there is in actually doing what we discuss. The same is true with my example of the Bishop - a great Bishop CARES! Now if a Bishop does not know his scriptures well he may not be as effective as he could be, but because of the way grace works, if it is that he tries his best then the Lord will magnify him so that he serves as a great Bishop or even better than one who may know his scriptures well. It is in the caring and seeing to the needy (both temporal and spiritual) that WE BECOME sanctified. Talking about it does not make one sanctified, knowing the scriptures backwards and forwards does not make us sanctified, but doing what our Father wants us to do PREPARES us to become sanctified by His Spirit for in the end it is by GRACE we are SAVED after ALL we CAN DO. Simply put - to find your life - you must loose it in the work of the Lord. The keyword is work. Now back to the topic at hand - is all well in Zion? What is Zion? Zion is the pure in heart - the assembly of the Saints that form a united community that is so strong that not even the wiles of the devil can over cometh it. Do we have this among us? Are we in Zion, a part of it, do feel as though we are working towards it. For me, Zion is based on everyone working together for a common goal - helping one another without the least amount of selfishness involved.