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Is All Well In Zion? - Page 4

JB, I'll be blunt. Your concept of sanctification is doctrinally incorrect. The reason why your meetings falter is because the people are not sanctified. You are focussing on the good works, not on getting sanctified. Once sanctified, a people do good works, because they want to and because they now have the power to do the good works. It is impossible to obey all the commandments of God without sanctification. Total obedience is evidence of sanctification. Sanctification is not what comes after living all the laws, it is a prerequisite to living all of the laws of Christ, including those important laws about the poor and needy. This thought that we must comply with all the laws of God prior to sanctification is why the people remain in their unsanctified state, and Zion remains unredeemed.

The scriptures clearly teach the doctrine of sanctification. We first become sanctified, gaining the power to comply with all the laws of God and then, upon complying with those laws, we get even more sanctified and the process continues until we obtain our calling and election made sure and the more sure word of prophecy and thus, having overcome the world, nothing more is required of us.

The difference between our church and all others is that we possess the gift of the Holy Ghost. Good people in other churches who care for the poor and needy are not sanctified. Only LDS can be sanctified. This demonstrates that good works alone is not enough. Only the Spirit sanctifies.

This idea that we must first live the commandments before we get sanctified is widespread among the church members, but it is doctrinally incorrect. The first commandment we receive after the baptism of water is to receive the Holy Ghost. That is the first commandment. If you skip over that commandment and attempt to live the other commandments, you attempt to live the commandments on your own human power and are living a modern-day version of the law of Moses, attempting to be justified by your actions. The gospel doesn't work like this. First you get baptised, then you receive the Holy Ghost (the second baptism or the baptism of fire) and then you are endowed with the power and the desire to live all the commandments and laws of God. Then it is no longer necessary to try to get people to do good works because they just naturally do them. Their natures have changed. Their hearts have been changed by the Spirit and they have been born again (the second baptism) and have become new creatures with the countenance of their Lord upon them.

By focussing on living the commandments without being sanctified, we are destined to fail. Moses sought to sanctify his people so that they could come into the presence of God. Joseph sought the same thing. Sanctification and obtaining and using all the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost are the goals of the Lord. He doesn't care so much about what we do as He does about what we are or what we've become. He wants a holy people, as Christ was holy. Holy and sanctified mean the same thing. Holy is more than mere justification, which is being guiltless. Holy is Christ-like. A person doesn't become like Christ from works alone, he must obtain the reception of the Spirit which will sanctify him, or make him holy. Then he will do the works of Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

When I was a missionary, in an elder's quorum meeting, the president asked us at the opening, who do we worship? I raised my hand and said, "We worship God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost." He said, "Amen. That was my entire lesson." Everything must be done by the power of the Holy Ghost. We must live the commandments of God by God's own power (the power of the Holy Ghost) not our own power.

The "all that we can do" that Nephi referred to does not refer to doing anything under our own power. It is simply obtaining the power of God and then using it to comply with His will. The LDS falter because they try to comply with His will on their own power in order to obtain the power of God. They do it BACKWARDS. And as long as they believe this false concept of the doctrine of sanctification, they will remain in their unsanctified state.

The scriptures explain over and over again what the doctrine of Christ is, namely, faith, repentence, baptism of water, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, which baptism comes from God, or, the Lord Himself baptises us with fire and the Holy Ghost. We all recognize the order, but right after confirmation, we don't continue on and receive the second baptism, probably because we understand the doctrine incorrectly to mean that this second baptism happens after years of striving to live the commandments. It is not supposed to work this way. The way it is supposed to work is immediately after getting confirmed, we should seek and obtain the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. There is no need to wait to obey any other commandment. We should immediately seek to be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. By doing so, the Lord immediately baptizes us and we are born again and have the power to obey all the Lord's words. Nothing then is difficult and we come to understand that the Lord's yoke truly is easy, because we are performing His will by His own power, or the power of the Holy Ghost.

Zion Well Is

Buggeyes, please get off your high horse. You try to see more than you can chew. First off I am not talking about sanctification - I am in fact trying to keep the topic within the lines of the subject matter which is 'Is All Well in Zion', but you seek to turn threads into your own rants. One thing that does concern me about your writings is the way you seem convinced that your interpretation is correct and absolute and that it is not simply your opinion, in fact, I do not remember seeing anywhere where you say 'according to your interpretation'... I tolerated your arrogant remarks that were totally out of place before, but not again. I suggest that you respect others opinions, stop being judgemental and READ the 'ReadMe First' or your time here will be short lived.

Is All Well In Zion? Studies Doctrine Mormon

For the most part, Buggeyes, yes, you should. That is the proper way to encourage discussion which is what this forum is supposed to be about. I must admit that I, often don't reply to much you say in your posts because it isn't offered as opinion but as fact. Well, it may be your interpretation of the facts, but when you don't state it as such, it doesn't really welcome open discussion and questioning of what you believe to be true. Most people would love to discuss your ideas, but I haven't gotten the sense you are actually open to discussing them. It seems more like you just want to set us all straight.

It does seem you have a lot of good information to offer, but remember, this is a discussion forum, not a lecture forum. If it is your desire to discuss rather than lecture, you would be better able to convey that message if you did present your thoughts and ideas with the qualifier that it is your opinion only and then defend why it is your opinion. At least that is my opinion on the matter.

It isn't that you disagree with JB or anyone else that is the issue, but, rather, how you go about that disagreement that is the problem.

Edited: tenaheff on 29th Jun, 2004 - 9:20am

Page 4 Zion Well Is

Well put Tena. Okay, let's not make the focus 'Buggeyes' anymore, I took off the offtopic remarks, let us get back to the subject matter:

Do you believe the Church has reached a stage it can be happy with or are we lagging behind?

"Our people have passed through oppression and persecution; they have
suffered drivings and every imaginable evil. And out of all of that has
come something which today is glorious to behold."

(Gordon B. Hinckley, "The State of the Church," Ensign, Nov. 2003, 4)

Zion Well Is

I believe that we can enjoy a Terrestial existence while in this life. I believe that when we experience the Baptism of Fire and the Spirit, wherein our sins are fully remitted, that we can begin to experience this.

If we continue to follow the Spirit and actively pursue righteousness, we can then have our Calling and Election Made Sure. Then we have the opportunity to experience a Celestial existence, while in this life.

Having my Calling and Election Made Sure will be when the Lord comes to me and tells me that I have "passed the test" and will be in the Celestial Kingdom.

Is All Well In Zion?

While President Hinckley's statement is true and I do think there is a lot within the Church to be proud of, I think there is a real danger in Zion today because we are no longer suffering persecution because of our church membership. We are pretty well accepted mainstream. This may encourage us to work to keep that acceptance to the detriment of further progression.

I see signs of it in many people in my ward. I am not sure I am immune from it either.

Is Well Zion - Page 4

Personally I feel there is so much 'weird' in the world that most people think 'Mormons' are a welcome addition even if they want to ave more than one wife . So in fact I think you have a good point Tena and I believe we actually try to bring the world more and more into the Church, but I hope it does not reach the stage where it seems different in some places as compared to others - although I have already experienced that. By the way, not to entertain Buggeyes questioning of Nighthawks beliefs, but I just want to say that I too believe that it is even possible to make your home a 'Celestial' atmosphere - it would take incredible work, but it is possible, so believing we can live a terrestial life is nothing much at all.

Is Well Zion Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

I think that we've come a long way, but the church has so much work that it can still do. It's just like people-we may be doing really well but there's always something we could do better on. And I do not believe that Mormons escape persecution everywhere. While it is true that people are much more tolerant of us now than they were 100 years ago, there are still a lot of people who don't understand and/or don't like Mormonism.