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The Great Divide - Page 3

Good stuff. I think I may have a different take on this. (probably not surprising.) I wonder if perhaps we are not making the divide wider then what is really needed to be? I am always concern that perhaps we exclude many of our brothers and sisters more and more. I wonder if our correlation of manuals, the more recent centralization of doctrine, and the ever greater codifying of righteousness that we slowly cut some of our members off. I kind of see this with the new missionary standards. I wonder if our "raising the bar" will exclude more and more people from serving the missions, because of there struggles and different views? I wonder if there is less room for those who have different opinions on doctrine to exist in our church together.

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The easiest way to verify this is to look at your own ward or stake. Are member mostly in agreement with the leaders or are they generally backbiting all the time? Are the leaders themselves doing the same?

The Great Divide Studies Doctrine Mormon

I have been a member for 46 years and it worries me to see the shift into main stream christianity. Changes in the temple (yes I know it is small stuff, but still, what drives all this?) I am sure we all know. It worries me when the prophet replies, "It is not doctrinal" on a question of polygamy. etc etc. I truly wished they would state, well that is what the Lord needed and it is not needed at this time. But it seems that we are almost selling our pioneers down the drain. To state it is not doctrinal is almost stating Joseph was wrong. It worries me to see how little tolerance exists for different points of view. The risk of losing your membership by only thinking about something (temple recommend questions) and sympathizing leaves you out of the temple. That is scary to me. I see people leave for that reason. I have also wondered about the polygamy issue and expect it to become legal in the USA. In Canada where same sex marriage is now legal, they expect polygamy to be legal within the next 10 years. I expect a considerable impact coming from this issue. As I have worked with poly men and talked with LDS church members, I find LDS brothers having a considerable interest towards this subject. The sisters might be another story all together. I think this will or can have a serious falling away from a lot of members. Not like the priesthood for all worthy members, I think it will be much bigger then that.

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I guess due to my inactivity for awhile I'm not seeing all these changes you all are talking about. What's been the most notable change so I can do some comparison?

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What a great thread! I am very opinionated on this subject and will express my opinion and ask that you forgive me if I sound too authoritative, it is still only my opinion. Also, sorry for the long post, I tried to break it up but wasn't able to make multiple posts...

This is happening more and more and people learn what really happened and even what we really teach. I have know people who learned that we can become Gods and said, "that is an obscure doctrine that is not taught any more, and I almost left the church when I heard it". This was in a relief society meeting by a convert of 5 years. We are not teaching doctrines. There is hardly any mention of Heavenly mother and as a missionary I cringed when we sang Oh My Father with a new convert present. We are getting good at hiding information to the point of flaw. And it can be very hard when you that you have actually been deceived by the church for years. (Hiding our VERY messy beginning.) And yes, the church is intentionally hiding or shrouding information from its members, to protect them. Not a smart move, this is a part of the house of cards that is being built and will eventually fall, but this will be more individual with occasional groups, but not the great divide, in my opinion.

Yes, I agree with this statement. It can be very hard when two recognized authorities contradict while "speaking as prophets". However, although this adds to the house of cards, it is not what will cause the great divide either. This has happened 2 major times before with polygamy and Priesthood given to blacks. Where there was plenty of preaching and prophesying that didn't jive with the later decisions/actions/revelations. They caused major issues, but the goats and the sheep are still together. Should polygamy return, it will likely be as difficult as before, but still no divide between the wheat and tares or goats and sheep.

The key is to look at what makes a person a sheep/wheat vs. a goat/tare. The funny thing is, that they are all mixed together and the wheat and tares look an awful lot like each other, and the goats are doing the same things the sheep are doing. They are all going to church and meetings and paying tithing and have temple recommends. But they are fundamentally different.

The Sheep hear the voice of the shepherd and know it. That voice is the spirit, (D&C68:4). You see, the gospel of Jesus Christ brings us to the Rock on which if we build we cannot fall. The Gospel is faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost which tells you all things what you should do. When we learn to be guided by personal revelation, through the holy Ghost, we are built on the rock from which we cannot fall. If we cannot fall then we qualify for our calling and election made sure through the promise of that same spirit which cannot lie, (Holy Spirit of Promise).

For those that are built on the Rock, Satan is bound. He can bring is torrents and whirlwinds but they only effect those built on sand, which usually denotes trusting in the arm of flesh especially leaders (governmental, religious or others). When the overwhelming majority of the world builds on the rock of personal revelation, Satan will be bound for a millennium, until the unrighteous are resurrected (end of millennium), and Satan has someone to follow him who are built on sand.

I personally know more people than I can count on my fingers who have built on the rock and received their C&E made sure in the last 4-5 years. Some of these my friends have been given the task of gathering the elect to the Church of the First Born, (D&C77:11). They are primarily focused on assisting current members to receive their C&E made sure/building on the rock. They are not organized in the manner of men, with leaders and authorities, but they are organized by the spirit which arbitrates their individual efforts to accomplish a great good. (Very fascinating to talk to them actually.) Which bring me to my opinion as to what will cause the great divide in the church.

There are those that join the church because they were seeking truth and saw it here. there are those who joined the church for other reasons. Those who follow truth and the spirit of truth, and those who because they are here for other reasons follow men/women/leaders. They are trusting in the arm of flesh rather than putting their trust in the spirit.

Notice that temple ordinances can be given to others even those who lied to get them and were not worthy. This is not the oil that burns and creates light. The oil is the ability to receive personal revelation. Being able to recognize the spirit and trust it. You can't give that to anyone. if you tried, they would only be following you and not the spirit. This is the difference between the goats and the sheep who both go through the motions. It all happens internally. This is why the kingdom of God is in us, not out side of us.

Two more thoughts:

The only way for the elect to fall is to deny the Holy Ghost which they followed to become elect. No other sin or transgressions will cause them to fall as in loose their exaltation. As this may be a very bold statement, I provide the following scripture to for validation:

Drawing the line between Blaspheming the Holy Ghost and shedding the innocent blood is another topic, but the point is that this is the only sin that can cause a person to fall who is built on the rock. It is not an oops type thing either, it is a conscious decision and Satan cannot "trick you into it".

And second final thought is that the Elect cannot fall as much as they can climb down from the rock. Which would be considered falling from an exalted state to a son of perdition. They would have to blaspheme the Holy Ghost and assent to the death of Christ.

The actual scripture reference is,

So the signs and wonders will convince many, but the elect who rely on the Holy Ghost will not be deceived unless they stop relying on the Holy Ghost.

So the great divide will be among the Wheat/sheep who know, recognize the voice of God (Holy Ghost) and those goats/tares that follow leaders. This brings up the question of the leaders, aren't they following the Holy Ghost? Yes and no. They are fallible as are we. Some do, some don't. Most go back and forth like we do. Even some of the early apostles had not followed the voice of the spirit which shows that even they are not immune. I believe that as the Church of the First Born grows within the LDS church the division will become more apparent. The First Born tend to be those who follow truth and the Holy Ghost and do not support dogmas and systems, the goats would be those who cling to the buildings and organization and leadership. Some will be unwilling to give up the power/authority that positions offer as more people begin to follow direct revelation from God. Some will be afraid of the transition and try to drive those with their election out of the church. But the knowledge of truth will spread too quickly in this information age and the division will be the result.


Edited: Amonhi on 12th Jul, 2008 - 4:42pm

The Great Divide

Unless you believe this to be false doctrine, then it is necessary for the members of Christ's Church to give heed the words of the prophets or one can be cut off from among the people (the great divide.)

The Savior does not distinguish between his voice or the voice of his servants the prophets when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. So the opinion that we can only rely on ourselves and not need to take counsel from others, seems to be contrary to God's word as found in the Doctrine in Covenants.

Rather off topic, but... I am not saying that the servants of the Lord are infallible, but that they are responsible for the kingdom of God as it now stands. They will be responsible if they teach something that is not perfectly correct, yet I have a strong belief that the Lord will not let them lead the Church as a whole astray. Look at Peter in the Primitive Church. He often made mistakes (he was reproved several times by Christ) and probably held views that had to be later corrected. He looked down on Gentiles and had to have his opinion changed by revelation from God. He was not a perfect man, but he was the man that Christ chose to lead his church in his absence. This, I suppose, is a personal choice each member of the Church will have to make ( to give heed to the words of the Prophets or not). I just think we should not readily throw their counsel aside if they make a mistake in their decisions. Men are flawed, but certain men though out time have held keys given to them by God, and they have been commanded by God to spread the message of the gospel though out the earth. If there are not prophets then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is not the Church of Christ. And if there are not prophets, then there is no Church on earth that has the keys for the Gathering of Israel, the redeeming of the dead, nor the need for any of the teachings of the Doctrine in Covenants that have been quoted so far. The notion that there can be a church based on the teaching of the Book of Mormon or any Latter day Scriptures without prophets, would negate the need for Joseph Smith to even see God the Father and the Savior Jesus Christ. And it would negate any revelations concerning Callings and Elections being made sure , as they were indeed revealed through prophets.

The Great Divide - Page 3

Dbackers:

Ahhh, key word here is "when they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost". Not every single word coming out from their mouth (as discussed in the thread "The Prophet said so, is that enough?" could be considered by the power of the Holy Ghost.

In Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." This scripture applies to ALL including prophets otherwise we would be teaching people "You cannot trust in your own understanding but come, trust mine!"

And my favorite of all:

(Doctrine and Covenants 1:19)

Now what all this mean? It means there is ONLY ONE person we can ever trust and that's the LORD. No one else.

Going back to the topic, I think if a great divide ever exist it would be the consequence of a very difficult doctrine to live that most members will not be willing to do. Not sure what could be exactly.

The Great Divide Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

But will that great divide come because the church does not listen to the prophet, or will it be because the Prophet has fallen? I tend to believe it will be because as you say, a hard doctrine will be introduced,that will be difficult for some to follow. I do not know what this is.

It is just my opinion that the Prophet holds the keys to the Church, and that as far as dealing with Temple work, missionary work, the gathering, etc. these keys are held by the Priesthood and the prophet (as given to Joseph Smith though the laying on of hands by those who held these keys in previous dispensations). I believe that we ere when we think these keys are found within us to perform certain obligations in the Church that are not within our stewardship. This is where I think the main divide will be. Members of the Church who believe that they hold the keys to certain responsibilities that can only be held by the Prophets and Apostles and trying to take these responsibilities unto themselves without receiving a calling through the Lord's appointed.

Listening to the counsel of a Prophet has never been considered leaning on the arm of flesh. Through out the scriptures the Lord has admonished us to listen to the counsel of Prophets. This is where I believe the Great divide will occur. Those who choose to heed the counsels of the Lord's anointed and those who choose to ignore these same counsels. Belief in the necessity of heeding to Prophets who have been chosen by the Lord is essential to this discussion, in my opinion.

Rather off topic, but... The definition of Heeding in the dictionary is QUOTE To pay attention to; listen to and consider: This seems to imply testing, considering, paying attention, not just blindly following. Those that have had the most problems with the prophets in the Scriptures are the ones that immediately dismissed them and sent them away without thought. We are admonished to test the words of the Prophets through thoughtful prayer. I believe we can test the words of the Prophets if we do so humbly and with a sincere desire to know the truth of their words

This seems to imply testing, considering, paying attention, not just blindly following.

Those that have had the most problems with the prophets in the Scriptures are the ones that immediately dismissed them and sent them away without thought. We are admonished to test the words of the Prophets through thoughtful prayer. I believe we can test the words of the Prophets if we do so humbly and with a sincere desire to know the truth of their words