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JB: QUOTE Out of curiosity, has any modern - Page 4 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 22nd Aug, 2010 - 6:44pm
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What may come in the future that will seperate the sheep from the goats?The Great Divide - Page 4
Dbackers, I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. I do believe in paying attention and considering the words of the Prophets, what I do not agree is in infallibility and if you're saying you don't think a Prophet can lead the Church astray then you do believe they're infallible. Again, this is something discussed in the Mature board, I would love to discuss it with you on that thread.
The Great Divide to me will come if the Church ever tries to do something "drastic" such as live Plural Marriage or accept Homosexual couples. Having said that, we are seeing every day the Church becoming more "mainstream" so I don't think this is going to happen.
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Post Date: 16th Jul, 2008 - 6:30pm / Post ID: #
Divide Great The
Listening to the counsel of a Prophet has never been considered leaning on the arm of flesh.
According to what you have written, we are in agreement. It isn't the listening, and considering that is the problem, it is the required or blind obedience. It is the attitude. Many people say, "I will check my revelation with the prophet", placing a fallible man of flesh as the highest authority rather than saying, "I will check the prophet with my revelation from God through the Holy Ghost", placing God as the highest authority. One is damning and the other is exalting. But they can be very tricky to distinguish. Satan knows that if people have found truth and been introduced to the Holy Ghost, his best option is to get people to NOT relying on the Holy Ghost by following good men.
| QUOTE |
| "There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312) |
Even Christ pointed out that it was better to follow the Holy Ghost than Christ. Here are two examples, but there are many"¦
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| "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. - Matt. 12:31-32 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matt. 16:17-18 |
| Rather off topic, but... This is the Rock on which if we build, we cannot fall. If we cannot fall, then we merit Calling and Election made sure. And conversely, denying/blaspheming the Holy Ghost is the only sin which can cause a person who has been sealed up to exaltation to loose their blessing. (D&C 132) |
| QUOTE |
| Those that have had the most problems with the prophets in the Scriptures are the ones that immediately dismissed them and sent them away without thought. We are admonished to test the words of the Prophets through thoughtful prayer. I believe we can test the words of the Prophets if we do so humbly and with a sincere desire to know the truth of their words |
Exactly. I am NOT saying that we should not listen, heed, and consider the prophets. I am saying that we should test them against our personal revelation and not our personal revelation against the prophets. Perhaps both should be done. I am not saying I condone either extreme, but I do lean more heavily on personal revelation through my internal witness. And the reason that it is the same regardless of whether it is "my voice or the voice of my servant" is because When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost carries it into the hear of the listener and both are edified together. So either way, personal revelation or listening to an other person's revelation, the Holy Ghost is the one teaching us always.
This topic has a lot of energy behind it, for many reasons. And every LDS forum I have ever been on, (about 15-20), has dealt with this topic multiples times. Look around and see. Some come to the conclusion espoused here and some come to the other conclusion. Funny enough though, it is a very split topic. And it is central to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would say it IS the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Elliaison wrote an article showing the connection between The Gospel, The Holy Ghost, the Rock, and C&E. (Best I have read on the topic if you like technical manuals) Here's a link: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Back on topic, because this is such a touchy topic in most forums, I think it will be the breaker. I have even been kicked off LDS forums for that belief. (Without even a discussion to attempt to convince me otherwise.) I have known some who have felt that they could not make comments on this topic in church because they felt the group, or at least the loudest people in the group were so adamantly against it. This topic has the power to bind Satan for a thousand years because he has no power over those who are built on the rock. Satan is not currently bound in the LDS church, so we must assume we have not as a group built on the rock. The funny thing is that if people actually did what the prophets are telling them, they would read their scriptures, pray for guidance, rely on the Holy Ghost to teach them all things and literally follow the prophet by walking in their footsteps and become prophets.
| Rather off topic, but... I am not challenging the keys. That would be ridicules. I would have more luck trying to convince the President of the United states that I have the keys to his position as I would challenging the President of the Priesthood, (Government of God), that I or anyone else has authority to make his decisions or manage the work. It isn't going to happen, neither should it happen. |
I could see perhaps the President of the church and or the apostles dying and then having a split in the Leadership causing the break, but I would see it as more likely that the message/mission of a future President it to emphasize this doctrine and lower leadership having issues because they were used to governing by virtue of the priesthood position rather than by persuasion and longsuffering. I used to govern my calling by virtue of my priesthood position and it was quite the wakeup call for me when I realized that I was in error. If those under me had known before me, it would have split my ranks.
I think that we should respect the forum rules by continuing further discussion regarding "Follow the Prophet" in whatever thread is designated for it. (I understand that it would be difficult to discuss this topic without discussing the doctrine found in the other thread. And suggestions on that?)
But I am fairly certain that is teaching will be the one, if any, that will split the goats from the sheep. Those who "hear my voice and know me" vs those who "neither know me nor my voice" but think they are following the prophets by do the various actions required/expected.
The Great Divide Studies Doctrine Mormon
Amonhi:
| QUOTE |
| I think that we should respect the forum rules by continuing further discussion regarding "Follow the Prophet" in whatever thread is designated for it. (I understand that it would be difficult to discuss this topic without discussing the doctrine found in the other thread. And suggestions on that?) |
The thread that deals with the Prophets is located in the LDS Mature board (upgrade required) is called The Prophet said so, is that enough?
Post Date: 15th Oct, 2008 - 7:58pm / Post ID: #
Page 4 Divide Great The
Name: Rob
Comments: While many on this thread have included many good thoughts regarding this Great Division, I find it astounding no one seems to know what will cause this. Anytime Heavenly Father poses or forecasts an eminent situation (prophecy), he always provides the answer as to how, where, what and when. The scriptures state-"There is nothing new under the sun". So if this be true...The answer is to be found among specific statements in the scriptures, confirmed by repetition and consistent patterns. I'm going to give a short answer to each of those 4 elements then list a few scriptures to read very carefully, always bearing in mind that all scriptures are for, or directed at at the Lords covenant people. How...By sending Great Delusion, that if it where possible, even the elect would be deceived. Where...The Temple of God. What...Someone proclaiming to be God. When...Very soon. Who...Who do you think?
Read 2 Thessalonians Ch. 3. Dose God provide a solution to this dilemma of who we should follow? Yes...Read D&C 85 ,103,112. There will always be an opportunity for choice and the choice will be ours to make. Do we accept that which we have been thoroughly warned of, deception and mediocrity,(the voice of man), or will you recognize the voice of the Spirit,(the voice of God)? By being seduced by the voice of man(not only no new revelation,but contradictory opinions)... I throw my vote to the Founding prophet of the Lords church and numerous prophecies in all our scriptures that very, very plainly state the apostate condition of the church closely preceding the Second Coming and the Lords' need to correct it through divine intervention. Why is this so hard to comprehend unless of course you are subject to the great delusion that the Lord said he would send. And why would he do that to us? Answer ...Because we have begged for it. Why is this hard to swallow? I hope each of you can figure that out before it's too late. Mediocrity will be the downfall of millions of members for not having the spiritual guts to recognize plain scriptural truths and Warnings. How many do you need? 3/4 of the scriptures provide these warnings directed directly at us.
Divide Great The
A couple of interesting quotes by Heber C. Kimball concerning this topic:
QUOTE In May, 1868-that is sixty-two years ago-he said:
  After a while the Gentiles will gather in Salt Lake City by the thousands, and this will be among the wicked cities of the world.
  After a while the Gentiles will gather in Salt Lake City by the thousands, and this will be among the wicked cities of the world.
He said also:
QUOTE An army of elders will be sent to the four quarters of the earth to search out the righteous and warn the wicked of coming events.
  All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed that will deceive the very elect, if such a thing were possible.
  Persecution comes next, and all Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit.
  Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do.
  Before the Temple reaches the square our brethren will be imprisoned until the penitentiary shall be full, and some of them will be removed to other penitentiaries.
  Mothers will weep for their husbands, and children will cry for their fathers. Some will die, and sorrow will fill the hearts of the Latter-day Saints.
  When the Temple roof is on, the persecution will lessen, but when the Temple is completed the power of the Evil One will be shut out.
  The prayers of the Saints will then be heard. The sick will be taken there and healed.
  The Spirit of God will rest upon the people, and work for the dead will be continued night and day.
  The judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked, to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home; or in other words, the Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles, and later on will be carried to the Jews.
  The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, "when we return to that place there will not be as much as a yellow dog to wag his tail."
  Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to the test that will try the very best of them.
  The pressure will become so great that the righteous among us will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
In 1856-that is seventy-four years ago-a small group of friends convened in the house of the Lord, called the Endowment House. The conversation was about the isolated condition of the Latter-day Saints.
"Yes," said Brother Heber, "we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.
"Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall."
"For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."
(Claude Richards, J. Golden Kimball: The Story of a Unique Personality ( 1934)
  All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed that will deceive the very elect, if such a thing were possible.
  Persecution comes next, and all Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit.
  Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do.
  Before the Temple reaches the square our brethren will be imprisoned until the penitentiary shall be full, and some of them will be removed to other penitentiaries.
  Mothers will weep for their husbands, and children will cry for their fathers. Some will die, and sorrow will fill the hearts of the Latter-day Saints.
  When the Temple roof is on, the persecution will lessen, but when the Temple is completed the power of the Evil One will be shut out.
  The prayers of the Saints will then be heard. The sick will be taken there and healed.
  The Spirit of God will rest upon the people, and work for the dead will be continued night and day.
  The judgments of God will be poured out upon the wicked, to the extent that our elders from far and near will be called home; or in other words, the Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles, and later on will be carried to the Jews.
  The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, "when we return to that place there will not be as much as a yellow dog to wag his tail."
  Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to the test that will try the very best of them.
  The pressure will become so great that the righteous among us will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
In 1856-that is seventy-four years ago-a small group of friends convened in the house of the Lord, called the Endowment House. The conversation was about the isolated condition of the Latter-day Saints.
"Yes," said Brother Heber, "we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.
"Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall."
"For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."
(Claude Richards, J. Golden Kimball: The Story of a Unique Personality ( 1934)
The Great Divide
Isn't that true right now? In Utah, I don't know about specifically Salt Lake City, but certainly the state is no longer a majority Mormon. I've also heard (I'll see if I can find a statistic somewhere) that the state of Utah has the highest Internet p-rn-graphy usage than anywhere else in the United States. "... Among the wicked cities of the world" indeed.
Edit: Here's a link to an article about this:Source 6 
Edited: FarSeer on 22nd Aug, 2010 - 5:15pm
The Great Divide - Page 4
Worst still... What about the heinous crimes committed by Members? Have you seen this Thread: Source 7 These acts are becoming more common and these are from supposedly 'active' Members.
Out of curiosity, has any modern main stream leader ever mentioned or hinted about a future 'divide' in the Church? It was obvious that this happened many times in the early Church but what has been said from the pulpit about the future?
The Great Divide Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4
JB:
QUOTE Out of curiosity, has any modern main stream leader ever mentioned or hinted about a future 'divide' in the Church? It was obvious that this happened many times in the early Church but what has been said from the pulpit about the future?
Elder Ballard talked about false prophets rising within and without the Church, of course a lot of the things he says goes back to the thread "The Prophet said so...":
QUOTE Some Latter-day Saints may not be aware of it, but there are "false prophets" rising within and without the Church. They believe they have had revelations, that they know something the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles don't know. We need to be very careful of such people. Members who are ever approached by anyone claiming special authority or revelation from God outside the sustained priesthood authority should turn and run from them as fast as they can. The Savior said that in the last days even the very elect could be pulled away from the truth by such false prophets.
A few groups have drifted away from the gospel under the direction of those who claim to have received special instruction through personal revelation, and some have declared themselves to be prophets. I know of one group that is led by a bright, capable, articulate young man who claims to have received a revelation that he is the prophet and that he was called of God to establish the true Church. Sadly, there are those who have chosen to follow such individuals, who in turn lead them directly away from the principles of truth and righteousness. Perhaps that is why it is so interesting to me that when the Master was asked about the sign of His Second Coming and the end of the world, He first responded by warning His listeners to beware of false prophets.
Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. Let me tell you why. Every week that I am in town, I attend a meeting of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple. If you could see the process by which decision and direction comes from that meeting, you would have a deep sense of confidence and comfort that the will of the Lord is being taught by the leaders of the Church.
So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. While individuals may falter, the body of general Church leadership will remain steadfast and true. If someone tells you that they have received revelation that the First Presidency and the Twelve have not received, run away from them.
A few groups have drifted away from the gospel under the direction of those who claim to have received special instruction through personal revelation, and some have declared themselves to be prophets. I know of one group that is led by a bright, capable, articulate young man who claims to have received a revelation that he is the prophet and that he was called of God to establish the true Church. Sadly, there are those who have chosen to follow such individuals, who in turn lead them directly away from the principles of truth and righteousness. Perhaps that is why it is so interesting to me that when the Master was asked about the sign of His Second Coming and the end of the world, He first responded by warning His listeners to beware of false prophets.
Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. Let me tell you why. Every week that I am in town, I attend a meeting of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple. If you could see the process by which decision and direction comes from that meeting, you would have a deep sense of confidence and comfort that the will of the Lord is being taught by the leaders of the Church.
So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. While individuals may falter, the body of general Church leadership will remain steadfast and true. If someone tells you that they have received revelation that the First Presidency and the Twelve have not received, run away from them.
TOPIC: The Great Divide