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The Great Divide - Page 2

We were talking about this last Sunday in Church. This happens because their testimonies are NOT based on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the only one who will never let us down, but their testimonies are based in anything else but him. Those who truly have a testimony about the Lord, those who prayerfully study the Scriptures will not be deceived, but those who are only Sunday members then it would be really hard for them to decide what's the right thing to do.

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If or when there is a great divide, the church must still have a central leadership, at least that is what I believe. Some Apostles in the Early church fell away, but there was still Joseph Smith and Faithful Apostles.

In the Church of Jesus Christ individuals are important, but the priesthood and the keys of the priesthood (or the power to act in God's name) are one of the things that makes the Church true. If the keys are lost in the twelve,or the Seventy then the work that Joseph Smith brought forth is for naught as the keys are what much of our work is based upon. Temple Work, Sealings, the Gathering of Israel, are all based upon keys passed down in the Apostleship, and are not held by all Priesthood holders. So, I believe without Apostle and Prophets in the Church, individually we fall into apostacy.

If the Current Leadership of the Church is all apostate as some say, then this Church is not true. No amount of personal revelation will help us if there is not someone on the Earth that holds the keys to the Gathering of Israel, Baptism, the sealing of the Holy spirit of Promise and turning the Hearts of the children to the Fathers and the Fathers to the Children. Without authority given of Jesus Christ, no matter how good our testimony is, the work of the Lord cannot move forward and we are as the Saints in the second century Christian Church who eventially go our own way, following our own hearts.

The Great Divide Studies Doctrine Mormon

Who are those typically who would say that? And could that be in and of itself what will divide us? Those who feel that they are apostate and those who don't?

I thought there was a scripture that stated God would never allow a prophet to deceive us--or maybe it was a quote? I am not sure, are you familiar with it?

I appreciated your post gaucho, as I think we are in a definite sifting process with all that is available for good and bad.

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I have a brother-in-law that I love dearly. I've told him more than once that he is a brother to me and not just an "in-law" that I have to tolerate. :-)

Anyway, he left the church about a year or so ago. He at one point had been an Elder's Quorum president, and I might add that he was a really great and effective one.

He started studying Church history when he was sent to Iraq, and that was the end of him. He felt that he had truly been lied to and deceived.

I believe past Church leaders have wanted the right thing by minimizing some of the more difficult things from our past. Now sometimes I wonder if the quest for acceptance by the world as a "mainstream church" after so many years of persecution doesn't fall into that category of wanting the praise of the world.

PLEASE don't take me the wrong way by thinking I am saying that our Church leaders are apostate or that the Church is false. I have to admit though our early days were messy and far from the idyllic version we are taught in primary and sunday school classes.

I am also aware of the same history as my brother-in-law and it does not bother me the same way. It's really almost impossible IMO to know the facts about what happened or did not happen because of so many fantastic claims by people both enemies outside the church and pro-faith fables by people inside the church at that time. I think the hardest thing for my brother-in-law was the attitude of coverup being the straw that broke the camel in addition to the difficulties in the history itself.

I really don't even want to pretend to judge his former testimony. I know he is a good and decent man now and that he still believes strongly in God and Jesus Christ. On the other hand, I have felt since I was a younger man that my tie was with God and Christ and not the Church (as a collective of imperfect people). When my brother-in-law sees someone who is not right in the Church it makes him angry and justifies his decision to leave. When I see someone who is not right, it makes me feel love for them and strengthens my testimony of the love of the Savior and the value of his atonement.

I am in the Church because it brings me closer to Heavenly Father. I think the system of worship is beautiful, the concepts unique among Christian faiths, and I have benefited tremendously from my practice of the teachings. I tried it and it works. What better witness is there?

The prophet can go apostate, but that does not change MY relationship to Christ. Yes, it would be very inconvenient from a priesthood authority and ordinance perspective. No doubt about that. On the other hand, 99%+ of all of God's children who have ever passed through this life did so without the fullness of the Gospel ordinances and the priesthood authority we have today. There has to be a great deal of value in living our life with what we have; otherwise frankly, God's plan pretty much sucks (to use the vernacular. hehe).

Knowing what limited amount I do about the Big Guy upstairs, I really doubt his great plan produces such poor results, or that it all has to be made up on the back end with post-life ordinances and spirit prison misionary work.

I know for sure that I don't know, and I see new things every day. That I know from the bottom of my heart and with every fiber of my being :-) [emotional testimony meeting cliche' way of talking]

Edited: Brianj on 7th Nov, 2007 - 5:10pm

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AlaskanLDS:

It was Wilford Woodruff who said that, but there is not Scriptural basis for it. I do not believe Prophets to be infallible. And before anyone would like to discuss this point , we have a thread in the LDS Mature board called "The Prophet said so, is that enough?" located here:

https://www.bordeglobal.com/foruminv/index....6565&hl=prophet

AlaskanLDS, you are more than welcome to join that thread, it is very long and I recommend reading every single page first.

BrianJ:

I fully understand what you are saying. I think we are too concerned about "image" and to please Babylon unfortunately. Nevertheless, due to the sensitivity of this topic and others, we discuss this in depth in the Mature section in many of our threads.

You haven't replied to the topic itself, do you think there will be a Great Divide in the Church in the last days?

The Great Divide

I'm reminded of the parable of the ten virgins. All ten were members, but only five entered in with the bridegroom because they were prepared. I think it will be like this. Lack of preparation in more ways than one. Are we prepared?
I also think a similitude of things to come is from the great apostacy of late 1836 and 1837 after the failure of the Kirtland bank society and many other persecutions. This came after the dedication of the temple and great miraculous manifestations. Many did not remain faithful including many of the apostles. Pride and speculation could still destroy us today.

The Great Divide - Page 2

LDS:

Sorry, I guess I didn't reply directly and clearly to that. Yes, I think there will be a great divide in the Church in the last days. I believe a great many members will have their fate tested to the limits and it will break. I'm not going to fault them for that because I think it will be really tough. Only God and Christ can judge that. They know the extent of the burden people will have. I also don't subscribe to the notion that we are never tested beyond out limits. In fact I think a core concept of life is that we are indeed pushed beyond our limits at times so that we fail. Failure reveals our faults to us. It makes the atonement even more of a gift, and it makes this life a precious opportunity for experience that can not happen in the presence of God.

I think my parents are of the opinion that good members of the Church will be spared from the terrible tribulations in the last days. They kind of think they'll be asked to show up at a special church meeting and be "twinkled" or something. I researched this topic extensively for myself and find no evidence of that in either scripture or from talks given by past high-level church leaders.

I think it is very likely that many faithful church members will think their faith will spare them discomfort in those last days, but it will not. That may be something that pushes them to the breaking point.

Message Edited... LDS_forever: I just fixed your quote tags.

Edited: LDS_forever on 9th Nov, 2007 - 9:53pm

The Great Divide Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

Brian, good points.

Actually I think scripturally speaking it says all the opposite, that even the most "elected" will fall and be deceived. I think we should be careful thinking we only need Faith in order to be spared or just be "good" members. It seems to me it will take a lot of study to know the signs as well as a very close relationship with Heavenly Father and of course the Holy Ghost providing the Spirit of Discernment and even THEN, I am not quite sure what we may choose.