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Terrorism Around The World - Page 6

I think I was probably the one who wrote that "All terrorists for the last two decades have been Muslim."

You are right, that was too broad. Let's say then, "85% or more of all terrorists for the last two decades have been Muslim." It still says the same thing.

No not all Muslims are terrorist. And, no, we shouldn't treat all Muslims as terrorists. However, we ABSOLUTELY have to be aware that a young, Arab male is 10000x more likely to be a terrorist than a 16 year-old white American girl, or a 75 year-old black American grandmother. Yet it is the 16 year-old American girls, the pregnant mothers, the grandmothers who are being subjected to the security searches in airports with hardly ANY Arab or obviously Muslim men being searched. That has always been the gist of what I have to say about the subject.

Now, as to Timothy McVeigh. There is STILL some strong evidence to indicate that he was working with some Muslims. There are several books published on this subject. I haven't read them, so can't comment on them, just pointing out that not everything is clear on this subject.

Of course there has been terrorism in Ireland, ecoterrorism, etc. But it is nowhere near as pervasive and destructive as Islamist terrorism.

The Unabomber was active more than 20 years ago. I was specifically talking about the last 20 or so years.

Anti-abortion terrorist incidents have almost died out. They are roundly condemned by EVERYONE in the "pro-life" camp. They get no support, morally, financially, or physically from the major players in the dispute.

Ecoterrorists do get support from the Left, but not a lot. Nor are they terribly indiscriminate in their targets. Neither of these types of groups target innocent women and children.

White supremecists are also extremely marginalized. They have no state sponsors, they have no multi-billionaires supporting them, and they don't have broad support within society. Muslim terrorists, on the other hand, have very broad support in their societies, they have multiple state sponsors, they have many multi-billionaires paying their costs.

While your arguments are certainly valid, they miss this vital point. While most Muslims aren't terrorists, the ones who are absolutely AGAINST terrorists are either impotent to do anything about it, are cowed into submission, or are killed.

So, what I see is that there are basic changes that must occur within Muslim cultures to curb this most prolific and pervasive form of terrorism.

World The Terrorism

The Unabomber began his letter bomb campaign in May 1978. He was still killing people with letter bombs as recently as 1995. He was finally arrested on April 3rd 1996.

I must admit that I don't know enough about Timothy McVieigh to say whether there was a muslim connection. A quick search of relevant websites seems to indicate that there is more evidence for a white supremacist connection, but as you rightly say "not everything is clear on this subject. I am puzzled that you state categorically that there "is STILL strong evidence" of a muslim connection, when haven't read and cannot comment on the evidence.

This is a matter of opinion of course, but some would say that the 30 year terror campaign in Northern Ireland (on both sides) has been more pervasive. It had become an integral part of everyones life, and tore apart a nation with roots going back to the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 - before there even was a United States - and building on the violence of the uprising in 1917. Since 1969, more than 3,400 people have died and 14,000 others have been wounded in the urban guerrilla war's ruthless bombings, assassinations and sectarian violence.

The 9/11 attack was a greater tragedy in numbers of lives lost, but the US doesn't have soldiers and tanks on the streets. I don't believe that the USA has been fundamentally changed by the experience in the same way as Northern Ireland was. The lives of the populations or Northern Ireland and the Republic were ruled by terror in a way that hasn't happened in the US.

Offtopic but, The American attitude to the "Irish problem" has always been ambivalent. A post in the Islam101 thread asks why people give to charities which fund Islamic terrorism. The 30-year campaign of terror in Northern ireland was funded to a large extent by Americans who thought terrorism was OK as long as it was happening to someone else. Look at this BBC news report written in the aftermath of 9/11. BBC - Northern Ireland Should I then treat all Americans differently because some of them supported the IRA terror campaign, in the same way all muslims are treated differently because some muslims support the jihad.

I accept your points about anti-abortion terrorists. Though the last death (that I can find a reference to) was in 1998, there was stabbing in 2000. I acknowledge that eco-terrorists tend to target property, but there was a pipe bomb incident in Auburn, California, in February of this year - all of which falls in your two decades criterion.

The position regarding white supremacists is covered by the link I gave in my previous thread.

My point is that by making rash, unsubstantiated claims (or by accepting them at face value), we alienate those very people we need to help us get out of this mess - the law abiding, peace-loving, American-Muslim. (And, no 85% is not 100% - and where do you get the figure of 85% from, anyway? Can you let us know your source? In fact, can you let us know how many terrorist incidents on American soil in the last "two decades" were perpetrated by muslims, and how many by non-muslims?

I do accept that when a tragedy occurs, seemingly caused by an easily identified group of people, such as muslims, it is tempting to attach blame to all members of that group.

I must admit that at the height of the IRA bombing campaign in London, the Irish population was treated with a jokey, but real suspicion. This attitude was as shameful as the current attitude towards muslims.

Can you verify these statements? It as been claimed by a member of this forum that the muslim community hasn't condemned the terror campaign. In fact, in the UK, and throughout Europe and the rest of the world, leading muslims and community leaders have strenuously condemned terrorist attacks.

Have a look at these sites:
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
How American Muslims Really Responded to September 11

We need to support these efforts, not belittle them.

Edited: mikejonesuk on 17th Jun, 2005 - 6:17pm

Terrorism Around The World History & Civil Business Politics

I don't have sources for my estimate of 85%. I was not talking about terrorism just on US soil. I was talking about terrorism. To me, terrorism is any attack on innocent people, with the express purpose of terrorizing society. Thus all the attacks on Israel by various Arab sources, the bombings around the world, such as in Spain on 3/11, the hijackings, even the internal terrorism within various Muslim states, designed to subject the innocent people to Islamist rule.

Based on these ideas, ecoterrorists are very minor league. The Unabomber targetted individuals. White supremacists - well, I haven't paid any attention to them, as I haven't heard of any mass casualties caused by them.

Northern Ireland definitely is a strong terrorist enclave. But I haven't noticed that it has been overwhelming like the Islamist terrorism.

WorldNetDaily.com has some books, as well as some deep articles, about possible Islamist connections to Timothy McVeigh, as well as documentation of Islamist connections to White Supremacists in general.

A couple of weeks ago, an organization of Muslims devoted to fighting terrorism had a rally and march in Washington, DC. About 100 people showed up, despite extensive publicity, in the right places, of the march.

Here in Michigan, a couple of Muslim clerics were charged with aiding terrorism. Apparently there was a lot of evidence. However, if there were ANY local Muslims who urged for a real investigation and appropriate punishment, the media never reported it.

I have heard of about half a dozen Muslim clerics who have really come out and denounced terrorist activities. I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. I have great hopes that one day, instead of 10% of the Muslim world being determined to destroy the West, that even 10% of the Muslim world was determined to destroy terrorist activities.

I have read many stories of "moderate" Muslims who have condemned terror and violent jihad, who have been put to death. This is particularly prevalent in the Palestinian Authority. But it happens a lot in such places as Iran, Egypt, and Pakistan as well.

The BBC doesn't probably doesn't report much of this, as the US media doesn't, because it is very sympathetic to the "Palestinian cause" and Islamism in general, at least in my point of view.

Page 6 World The Terrorism

I agree that the various 'domestic' terrorists in the US are very small in number compared to Islamic terrorism, but I would not diminish the importance of the Irish experience. Perhaps we can agree to differ on that issue.

The rally in Washington actually only attracted 50 participants according to some estimates. A similar rally was held in Phoenix on April 25th. How many attended? Estimates vary. The Arizona Republic counted 250 in attendance, the police 400. The number of Muslims, according to one account, was between 30 and 100 persons. Most participants were not Muslim. This is disappointing considering that the muslim community of Phoenix is estimated at 50,000 persons. (I haven't found a figure for the muslim community in Washington.)

(A similar rally against terrorism took place in Dallas in October 2001 and was attended by "hundreds". More info at American Muslims rally against terrorism

The obvious conclusion (though maybe not the right one) is that muslims don't care enough about the terrorism issue to protest. Other reasons for the low turnouts have been suggested including political infighting among the leaders of the various muslim groups, such as Kamal Nawash, who organised the Washington rally. One commentator wrote "The vast majority of Muslims are ashamed of what's being done in the name of Islam. The typical Arab (or Asian, for that matter) response to shame is to hide it, not flaunt it in public display."

I'm not convinced by these arguments, though I find it very telling that the turnout was so low. It's almost as if muslims did not feel able to attend the rally whether or not they agreed with its aims.

Perhaps muslims members of this forum in Washington and Phoenix can tell us whether or not they attended and the reasons for their choices.

Interestingly, CAIR (The Council on American-Islamic Relations) which is much more concerned with protecting the civil liberties of American muslims and empowerment, could not muster much more of a crowd than either Washington or Phoenix rally. A triumphalist CAIR e-mail blast after its "Muslim Americans for Human Rights and Dignity" rally on May 14 claimed 200 people; the Arizona Tribune counted "about 150"; and the Arizona Republic located just "close to 75."

A useful website to look at is: Islam for Today: Muslims against Terrorism

Here is a quote from a community leader:

"Our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City, who love their flag just as much as [we] do. And we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war, that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve. I know that is your attitudes as well. Certainly the attitude of this government, that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror. We will hold those who are responsible for the terrorist acts accountable and those who harbor them."

Who said that? George Bush. (I never thought I'd use a quote from George Bush in support of any argument I was making. It's a crazy world.

World The Terrorism

That is a very sound definition. I totally agree with you. That is why your estimate of 85% is so far off the mark it's not funny. Can you name me five African nations whose population doesn't suffer some form of terrorism? What about most Asian nations to throw into the hat? South America, Latin America, Europe... The list really goes on and on.

I can only guess the reason you believe there are so many arab's involved in terrorism is because the US is currently embroiled in a "war" against arab terrorists. It must receive about 85% of your international news coverage? But when you compare Al-Qaeda to some other terrorists, like Mugabe's mob in Zimbabwe or what is happening in the Congo, Bin Laden's monkeys are hardly a drop in the ocean. September 11 has really turned the US into a paranoid nation and the Bush Administration is milking this fear to good effect.

The coalition has completely turned a blind eye to billions of others around the world who suffer terrorism on a daily basis, whether it be from oppressive regimes, guerilla groups or corrupt militaries.

The Israeli Army has murdered over 3 times more Palestinians. The Israeli army are terrorists who are never accountable for their massacre. How many times have their actions been condemned by the rest of the world? I have seen video footage of the Israeli army shooting a man and his 5 year old son until the son bled to death in the poor man's arms. There was no gunfire from the direction the man was positioned, it was murder. A US peace activist was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer who ran over her until she was crushed to death, this was caught on video. The instances go on and on. Weak mainstream media outlets condone these murders by reporting everything the army says as truth. Every time a Palestinian is killed they were a "suspected terrorists". Every time an Israeli, they are innocent civilians. To suggest that it is only Palestinians who are the terrorists in this conflict is either terribly mis-informed or prejudiced.

Where did you get this figure from? Was there a census conducted among the Muslim population I missed?

10,000 times? Where did you get this figure from? I feel for anyone in the US who is Arab with some of this rhetoric. Since when did the US become an ignorant country? I always thought it was a place of acceptance. My pet dog is more likely to be a terrorist than a 75-year-old African American grandmother, I don't quite understand your point here?

However, I'm disturbed at the security of your airports if what you say is true, Nighthawk. We cant all help but think how Sept 11 might have been avoided with proper airport security. I don't understand why they should pick and choose who gets searched? Is this really the case? I would have thought since Sept 11 they would be more prudent than this.

I would have to agree with this. The fact that a lot of US attention on terrorism seems to permeate from the Middle East, they probably feel uneasy or scared to attend these rallys. I think you would find that a lot more would attend peace rallys. At least that was the case in Australia, but we never had rallys against terrorism. Don't terrorist groups thrive notoriety, I would have thought rallys against them in the US is what they want.

Terrorism Around The World

Bomber or Insane?

A man shot and wounded on a Jetway at Miami International Aiport said he had a bomb, a senior administration official told CNN.

Terrorism The World - Page 6

This really disturbs me for many reasons.

We are starting to kill people because they might be a potential threat? Didn't a guy called Adolph work in this savage fashion? Are we all mind readers now? This guy suffered Bi-polar and some cowboy guns him down. Shoot to kill, ask questions later.

What a load of wank. Didn't we learn anything from the British experience that shoot to kill is so flawed its not funny.

Why can't these heroes use tasars or shoot to mame. Why kill? Another life is murdered because of a paranoid nation kills now and asks questions later.

Edited: arvhic on 8th Dec, 2005 - 11:12am

Terrorism The World Politics Business Civil & History - Page 6

https://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49224

This is a very disturbing warning because of predictions by some that an attack or some sort of "shake up" would be happening toward the end of this month. Also, the wording that says discovering or trying to stop these attacks will only bring them on more swiftly. Interesting. If it's true, it's scary because of the loss of life and heartbreak it will bring to people. Even if it's false, I hope it brings people to a realization that they need to be prepared anyway for other events (including natural disasters, etc.).