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Close Topic OptionsIraqi Prisoner Abuse? - Page 2 of 15
O.K. I think in other threads, I am on record - Page 2 - Politics, Business, Civil, History - Posted: 7th May, 2004 - 10:34am
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Iraq Prison TortureIraqi Prisoner Abuse? - Page 2
I don't understand the statement that says he stopped short of apologizing. To me, if you acknowledge it was wrong, just because you don't use the words, "I'm sorry" doesn't mean it isn't an apology. I think the fact that he went on Arab TV to acknowledge how wrong this is, was, in fact, an apology for it happening. He has admitted it shouldn't have happened.
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Abuse Prisoner Iraqi
A lot of people want him to use the words, "I'm sorry," so that they can then use it as a political attack against him.
I agree. How much more does he (and we) have to grovel? We know it was wrong, our people were investigating and taking action on it long before it became a media circus, and it is being resolved.
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Post Date: 6th May, 2004 - 6:23pm / Post ID: #
Iraqi Prisoner Abuse? History & Civil Business Politics
According to CNN: President Bush says he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. troops. https://CNN.com
Page 2 Abuse Prisoner Iraqi
Well, he did apologized....
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| Now, as I wrote on another thread, so far I haven't heard of any real torture. Humiliation, yes. What happened was extremely wrong and bad. The perpetrators must be, and will be punished. But it wasn't torture. It doesn't even approach the level of "pleasurable sexual" torture within the S/M community. |
The point is that after what happened, we cannot really know what's going on and it seems like the Pentagon has no clue whatsoever what's going on there either.
It may be happening or has happened before and nobody knows. I think this is extremelly sad. Personally, I was very upset about it but not surprised, this kind of incidents are very common in situations like what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.Now, a point that I want to make is that just because these Iraqis have been humiliated and not tortured (as far as we know) it doesn't mean it's right, we have no right to compare it with any other country and how they handle it, because by doing this (in my humble opinion) we are rationalizing it and excusing a behaviour that is totally unacceptable.
| QUOTE |
| I am pointing out that, again, for some reason, a double standard is held against the US. People express outrage against the US for the actions of a VERY few soldiers, yet disregard the official governmental positions of all these other countries. |
The point now is that we are not sure if really are VERY few soldiers, how do you really know that?, as somebody pointed out. This US administration seems very secretive so really at this point I don't know what to believe anymore. The only thing I hope is that the guilty parts pay for what they have done.
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Abuse Prisoner Iraqi
For what I read on CNN the report says they (US soldiers) did the following:
"¢ Threatening prisoners with a pistol.
"¢ Pouring cold water on naked detainees.
"¢ Threatening males with rape.
"¢ Beating prisoners with a broom handle.
"¢ Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light.
"¢ Threatening detainees with military dogs.
"¢ Attaching wires to extremities.
"¢ Accusing prisoners of homosexuality.
"¢ Forcing prisoners into compromising positions.
It seems much more than just humiliation to me.
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Post Date: 6th May, 2004 - 11:56pm / Post ID: #
Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?
I found this story in The New York Times.
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| U.S. Examines Role of C.I.A. and Employees in Iraq Deaths By DAVID JOHNSTON and NEIL A. LEWIS WASHINGTON, May 5 - The Justice Department is examining the involvement of Central Intelligence Agency officers and contract employees in three suspicious deaths of detainees, two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, federal law enforcement officials said Wednesday. One of the victims of suspected abuse was an Iraqi major general in the Republican Guard, who died in November 2003, several days after he was questioned at an interrogation center in western Iraq by C.I.A. officers, according to a senior law enforcement official. The official said the Pentagon had identified the Iraqi officer as Abid Hamid Mohush. On Wednesday, a C.I.A. official outlined the cases in which agency employees or contractors are involved but declined to identify any of the agency employees. The official would not name the victims or provide details on grounds that the cases were under investigation by the agency's inspector general, who has shared investigative findings with the Justice Department. In November 2003, the official said, a detainee at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad died, apparently as he was being questioned by a C.I.A. officer and a linguist who was hired by the agency as a contractor. In that case, the detainee had been turned over to intelligence authorities by Navy Seals, whose spokesman on Wednesday denied mistreatment of the prisoner. The agency official said the detainee was not touched, but "slumped over" during the interrogation. The C.I.A. officers who interviewed General Mohush also denied mistreating him. In a third case, in June 2003, a detainee in Afghanistan died during questioning by an independent contractor working for the C.I.A., a case in which the agency official did not rule out mistreatment. Another area of possible wrongdoing by the agency disclosed Wednesday relates to requests by C.I.A. personnel to military authorities at Abu Ghraib prison to hold suspects without listing them on the prison's rolls, according to newly available passages of an internal military report on abuses in Iraqi prisons. The practice was routine, according to a passage in the report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba. The passage was included in an unedited version of the report that circulated on Wednesday on several Web sites; previous edited versions of the report omitted any reference to withholding names from prison rolls. Detainees kept off the prisoner roster at Abu Ghraib were referred to as "ghost detainees," the report said. In one instance, the report found, a group of six to eight prisoners "was moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross survey team." The Justice Department's jurisdiction over agency employees stems from federal statutes, like one cited by law enforcement officials, which make it a crime for Americans acting under government authority to "inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon another person under his custody or control." Under the torture statute, a person convicted of killing someone by torture could face a sentence of death or life in prison. Federal civil rights law might also be applied, the officials said. Contractors are hired under an arrangement that assures them they will not be prosecuted under Iraqi law, he said. They are also, because of Supreme Court rulings, not held accountable to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Copyright 2004 The New York Times |
As far as human rights abuses go, I think the worst has yet to be revealed. It also dosen't reflect well on any of the governments involved in the liberation of Iraq
Iraqi Prisoner Abuse - Page 2
| QUOTE (LDS_forever @ 6-May 04, 5:38 PM) |
| For what I read on CNN the report says they (US soldiers) did the following: "¢ Beating prisoners with a broom handle. "¢ Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light. It seems much more than just humiliation to me. |
Those two items are the only actions you listed that can be considered torture, and it is extremely mild. This does NOT justify any of the actions. Only defines it.
All the other actions were humiliations, but still wrong by UCMJ and articles of war.
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Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Politics Business Civil & History - Page 2
O.K. I think in other threads, I am on record as not being opposed to torture. I happen to think there are times when it is appropriate such as interrogating a known terrorist who has information that can save many other lives by preventing a large terror attack. However, the incidents reported as happening in Iraq do not by any stretch of the imagination come under that realm. These incidents are absolutely unjustifiable, unacceptable, and indefensible. I will not make any statements to try to temper anger either or calm feelings. This is so wrong, I can't even express how it makes me feel. The more time passes, the more pictures we see, the more obvious it is that it is not just a matter of a few isolated incidents by a few misguided soldiers.
Did you notice how all of the pictures where you might see a face has something covering the person's face. I am sure this is because they were aware that it is against the Geneva Convention to display pictures of a prisoners face publicly on display. This was a huge issue raised when our own soldiers were captured and paraded on television. To me, this act should in no way allow them to be held accountable for the law against such behavior. It's intent has to do with public humiliation, etc. Simply draping a pillowcase over someone's head is not enough to say "I didn't break the rules of the Geneva Convention." It is as though they are mocking the Geneva Conventio.
While I haven't yet seen evidence of war crimes as such, what I have seen is without question contrary to the Geneva Convention to which we hold every other nation accountable. I think everyone involved, even in the smallest way, must be severely punished. And, I think the punishments meted out need to be made very public just like the humiliations made have been done publicly!
I won't be shocked to discover war crimes have been committed either, by the way. I was shocked by this, but if this can happen, and to the extent that it has, then I don't think it is that big a stretch to believe anything could happen. However, I will reserve judgement on whether or not war crimes have been committed until I see what I consider hard evidence of such.
Also, I think Rumsfeld needs to go. This should never have been covered up to the extent that it was. We, in the US, are supposed to live in an open society. I would not have been so horrified, if I had heard there had been a recent allegation of prisoner mistreatment that we were investigating vigorously and that such behavior would not be tolerated. That is not at all what happened.
I do not believe Bush needs to go as a result of this, but I think he needs to hold to the utmost accountability everyone who knew anything about this that didn't act immediately. I don't think back door investigating is enough. I know it was being investigated, but I think it should have been made public immediately, and the outrage of our leaders should have been expressed immediately in an effort to end such behavior immediately!
I am outraged and ashamed! I may not have done anything personally, but something is wrong with the society in which I am living here in my country, when such things can happen and then rather than be dealt with openly and swiftly, they are swept under the rug, which is what I think was being done. I understand what an official reprimand means to a soldier, but we, as citizens should have known about this, as well as all military members, so that the US position against such behavior could be reinforced for all immediately!
This is the first time in my life when I have felt truly ashamed by my who I am as a US citizen. No, this doesn't erase all the good we do as a nation, but all that we do good as a nation doesn't make this better either! All of this, in my not so humble opinion, of course. 
Edited: tenaheff on 7th May, 2004 - 11:03am
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TOPIC: Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?