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What Is Intelligence? - Page 2

Sadly, we used to have a thread about this called, 'The Intelligences' and it got lost in the transfer from YaBB. In it I was saying... next time you sit in a chair... think about it... that chair remains a chair because the intelligences (atoms and whatever) obey a celestial law to remain that way. When I first got wind of Skousen's talk on the Atonement during my mission I felt like I was on fire... now I know, what makes God - God. Why he can't just forgive his children without satisfying justice and so on... great. Thanks for bringing it up again Gaucho.

Intelligence What

I have just read the Skousen article linked in this thread. It's kind of funny. Just a few days ago a friend of mine brought over a couple of Skousen Compact Disks in which were some fireside talks he had given. I listened to the one my friend said was the better one, yesterday, and I wasn't impressed, at all. This article lifts Skousen up a little bit after that mediocre talk I heard.

Skousen in his talk had some annoying habits that I spoke to my friend about, such as paraphrasing and privately interpreting a scripture as if he were quoting it, instead of just quoting the scripture verbatim and allowing his audience to come to their own conclusions. He does this same (very annoying) type of thing in this article, except in this case he also invents dialogue that persons may have spoken. In his talk, he also hardly gave the scriptural references. This article, at least, gives scriptural references, though often he does insert his own private interpretation, such as:

This has not been revealed and is mere speculation on Skousen's part.

The article goes deep, but does not state anything that is not already plainly explained in the scriptures (speaking of the doctrine and not of his interpretations and speculations.) I would have thought that going as deep as he did, he would have mentioned Lehi's definition of outer darkness and the second (or spiritual) death:

It is the "compound in one" from which we all come, meaning that the intelligence and element in their original state were fused or compounded together as a single entity or body. God, beginning His creation, split the compound into two substances, "that which acts" (the intelligence) and "that which is acted upon" (the element.) And then from there He put these two opposing matters into their various and infinite configurations, elements organized into bodies and intelligences organized into spirits.

I suppose leaving some things out (such as what I wrote above) is okay since with what he does give a person can then go and learn and study the gospel and hopefully learn the rest, but I still find it annoying when he chooses to insert his own private interpretations and assumptions into the scriptures. For example, he says:

This is what the Lord actually said:

We do not know the end result of the sons of perdition. We can speculate, but that is all. There is more to be said on the matter and any assumption on his part that "they cannot be swept up in some future round of creation and recycled" is not yet revealed. I, like Skousen, have an opinion on the matter, but when presenting doctrine to missionaries, especially deep doctrine, it's best to keep our opinions to ourselves and stick to the doctrine only.

On the whole I think it is an excellent article, well written, and goes into depth. I'd change more than a few things that Skousen took liberties with, or made assumptions about that some one reading or listening in his audience might take as the absolute truth, but the article (on the whole, but not in certain particulars) is fairly consistent with what the scriptures teach and what I've come to understand about the plan of salvation.

I will not take the time to analyze the entire article and point out the errors (the article is very long,) but I would hope that any reading it would not swallow the whole thing down their throats as fact. Read the scriptures yourself and come to your own conclusions.

What Is Intelligence? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Well commented upon - it is good to LDS thinking!

I have a query about 2 (not 1) Nephi 2:11...

Was not Lehi here speaking of the impossibility, or illogical reasoning, behind those ideas which deny creation, the Atonement and the reality of the earth's purpose and God's Plan?

So Lehi illustrates this by saying "wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one" - in other words, he is saying that this is what must be IF those false ideas are true. But they are not true. You cannot have all things being a compound in one; and "compound" is by very definition something that consists of more than one element, more than one member.

Lehi is talking about what is *not* real in this passage and I do not understand the way you have used it. Of course, I appreciate things can have different meanings on different levels but I had not thought of it as you have put it

Dubhdara.

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I must agree with Buggeyes, I've read some of Skousen and what I've read hasn't immpressed me too much, he takes a lot of liberties. I can't criticize him too much though, because in my on religious philisophical meandoring, I've taken quite a few of my own doctrinal liberties. Most of them relating to this topic in fact. (Intelligence I mean).

My own thoughts on the subject relate intelligence to light. My basic argument is that Light cannot be created or destroyed and is from all eternity to all eternity, just as intelligence is. Also throughout the scriptures there are numerous references to light and truth being synonymous with intelligence.

I actually wrote an essay on my thoughts. I'll pull it out and sum it up with scriptural references if anyone is interested.

~Nicolla

Intelligence What

I actually have a talk on this subject 'Light', it goes through the scientific and spiritual relationship between it and intelligence, so I believe you are right, let's see what you have - I am interested so long as you have references to the scriptures and or Latter-Day Prophets.

What Is Intelligence?

This subject is covered (light) is covered very well in that old classic, "Science and Mormonism". I gave my copy away though and it's out of print now. Anyone got it or know where I can get one?


Anyway, I remember it said that - technically - light also includes such things we don't normally think of as light such as radio waves. The theory of accretion is also very interesting in this connection - anyone got a copy as I shall probably misquote it ;(


Dubhdara.

What Intelligence - Page 2

dubhdara, I had replied to your post but this forum did not allow it to go through because it was too long, so I'll put half of what I wrote last night here and when someone else posts after me, I'll put the second half down.

Now, to answer your question: Was not Lehi here speaking of the impossibility, or illogical reasoning, behind those ideas which deny creation, the Atonement and the reality of the earth's purpose and God's Plan? Yes, you are correct. But he did so by explaining what it would be like to be in the un-created state, or, in other words, what it would be like if there were no creation. The description he gives describes everything that God has not created, including all the things He did create, PRIOR to their creation. This state of all things prior to their creation can be called the uncreated state. The uncreated state is in one body, or a compound in one. It has no opposition or other type of matter. It is one single type of matter, all the same, serving no purpose whatsoever. Latter-day Saints are familiar with the thought that there is no end to the amount of uncreated matter out there, available to be made into whatever any god wants to make it into, but they also think that there is some type of division among that infinite mass, of spirit matter and phisycal matter. Lehi is explaining here that such is not the case. The original source was of one substance that God split into two opposing materials. Of the one substance, He created a material that moved and a material that was moved. One material acted and the other was acted upon, and of these two materials He built the universe. They were opposites and this law of opposition applied equally at all levels of creation, even in all the laws of God, including the laws of salvation. Lehi was teaching this principle starting at the very beginning, when the Lord actually first created the opposition in all things.

You also wrote, Lehi is talking about what is *not* real in this passage. It might be better to say that Lehi is talking about what is not created in this passage. The un- or non-created things are just as much real as the created things.

Now, here is the FIRST PART of what I wrote last night...

Here are the verses in 2 Nephi 2 (not 1 Nephi 2, thanks.) All emphasis and comments (in braces) are mine:

What Intelligence Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

This sounds good so far. Please continue.