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Post War Iraq - Page 123

I'm not entirely suprised by the loss of these weapons at all and I am certain the Pentagon was aware of this as it was happening.

We all know the majority of the killing in Iraq is being done by death squads of which many members belong to Iraq's security forces. This ludicrous notion that it is Al-quaeda, as is desperately being pedalled by the US Government, is another reason why Bush continues to be the international joke he is.

The US needs to get out. So do the Brits and other partners in crime.

As bobnbrittw mentioned, despite all good intentions, US troops are failing. They aren't trained, the Pentagon and Rumsfeld screwed up and now the troops are just playing a minor, pointess role over there. Might is not right, it never will be in the end, and you certainly cannot build democracy by forcing it onto people with violence.

Lesson learnt, let's move on and do what is in the best interest of Iraq. I was recently asked by JB what plan that might be? Truth is, I don't know the answer. I am not an international strategist and I don't live in Iraq. But what I do know is that keeping occupation forces that are despised in a country against the will of its people is not helping anyone. I think an international solution with the support of neighbours, including the "evil" Iran and Syria, must be pursued. But the stubborn and stale neo-cons wouldn't dare admit they made a mistake.

On another note, I am not surprised, but still disgusted that another US soldier on edge who blatantly murders an innocent man and then tries to conceal his sickening war crime does not serve time in a US jail. This was premeditated murder. There is no way it could be anyhing else. Even if this man was the targetted terrorist he was supposed to be, it is still murder - still a war crime. Why on earth wasn't he tried in a civillian court instead of in front of a few of his Marines mates? It's a sick system, much like Guantanamo Bay.

The US feels free to lockup other nationals without any proof of war crimes yet this massive double standard is applied to its own forces. Every soldier involved in this war crime should be punished in the harshest way. I would like to know how Americans would feel if the tables were turned and an Iraqi soldier was let off for murdering an innocent American in America?

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It used to be that 1-5 were killed from a suicide / bomb attack. Then it went to 10-15 and so forth, now we are counting in the 500's. Things seem to be getting more and more dismal there - poor children.

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Any facts to support your view (since the Pentagon denies your allegation), or just into conspiracy theories?

We know that was in the past. Not sure how clear that is today. Reforms were required as a condition to the infusion of more U.S. troops. Supposedly, a lot of this was cleaned up. Do you have any evidence that nothing has been done to help correct this?

Why do you not believe al-Qaeda when it says it is doing these acts? What inside knowledge do you have, to discredit the Iraqi government, the U.S. government and al-Qaeda itself? Might you consider that not even Iran, an enemy of America, is not even denying that al-Qaeda is in Iraq?

Hard to be a partner in a crime unless there is a crime, isn't it?

Why should U.S. forces leave when al-Qaeda is in Iraq?

Wow. That's so wrong in so many ways. The U.S. forces are accomplishing there objectives. The Pentagon warned that due to the U.S. Congress setting deadlines, that there would likely be something similar to a "Tet offensive" as we approached September.

Gee...it's middle August and...shock...we have it. Looks like the Pentagon was right.

And what is "pointless" about helping to protect innocent Iraqi civilians? You'd suggest that we just abandon Iraqis to terrorists?

Maybe not always. Sometimes might is right (consider forcing Germany to stop the Holocaust. That wasn't accomplished by diplomacy and nice fancy state dinners.)

How did the allies force democracy onto the Iraqi people with violence (in a way that was different than Germany or Japan)?

So you missed the part about Iraq's government pleading for MORE allied forces and pleading for America to NOT abandon it?

Hmmm. Do you believe it is "good" to support terrorism? Iran and Syria both support terrorism. Not sure why you are "hinting" that they might not be "evil."

I agree we need to get other nations involved. And, finally, the United Nations has voted to up their presence in Iraq. If you recall, the United Nations pulled out early on when it got ugly, and pretty much hid with its tail between its legs while Iraq and its allies did the heavy lifting, even while Iranian arms keep showing up in Iraq under the bodies of dead Iraqi children.

Oh yeah, Iran is the "good" one. I forgot.

Boy, we sure are hitting everything here. But, who is this person? I'm surprised that a U.S. court would allow a man proven to have been involved in premeditated murder to walk away without punishment.

Names and sources would be wonderful.

Well, I'd discuss but we need more facts/sources.

Those "Marine mates" are the same ones who sentence U.S. soldiers to life in prison or death. And what makes you think American jurors would be any more harsh. Wouldn't you just call those American jurors as "American mates" and therefore biased? Perhaps you want a U.S. Marine to be tried in an Iranian court, to make it more fair?

Those in Guantanamo are largely those captured on the field of battle. The combatants were not wearing the colors/standards of any nation. What should America do with them? Just set them free? Oh, it has done that with some. One was just killed in the Middle East after he had "reacquainted" himself with his terrorist friends and killed a few more innocent people.

You know about that, right?

Every soldier involved in a war crime should receive a just/fair punishment.

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arvhic:

I certainly did not state that the troops were failing. I simply said that they were having a difficult time handling the situation because it is a different enemy than we are trained for. I believe our troops are becoming accustomed to the tactics of their enemy now and they are coming up with strategies.

I would like to see an eventual withdrawal of coalition forces from Iraq. There will come a time that it will be appropriate and necessary. I would also like to see the Iraqi people stand up and be a greater part of what is going on. All of the great countries of this world at one time or another have fought against oppression or tyranny with a ferocity that engenders a greater good. It is time for the Iraqi people to do that now, if they want it.

I agree that you shouldn't keep occupying forces in a country that doesn't want them, but this is not the case in Iraq. As tortdog pointed out they recently begged for us to not abandon them.

In the US you are guaranteed to have a fair trial with a jury of your peers. A civilian is really not a peer of a soldier. Most civilians have no idea what it means to be in the military. I personally believe that a court-martial will result in a harsher punishment than a civilian trial.

Rather off topic, but... Incidentally a man can be tried in both courts, and serve consecutive sentences for the same crime. I knew a man when I was in the military that beat his wife. He was court-martialed and served a sentence in the brig, and when he got out his wife sued him in a civilian court and he served a sentence in jail. Double-jeopardy does not apply. Not sure if this is applicable for war crimes.

Edited: bobnbrittw on 18th Aug, 2007 - 4:33am

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I don't have a great deal of time right now to respond in much detail, but please keep this debate moving.

Can I ask anyone in this forum to please explain to me how the Iraq situation is nothing short of a failure. Tortdog, you seem adament that US troops are winning the civil war, what proof do you have? Foxnews and Bush's word is not proof. Nor is the word of Iraq's politicians who are desperate to appear relevant. Do we still care what Al Qaeda says?

Open your eyes people. Iraq is a failure in every sense of the word. The real failure may have begun with the Coalition's desperation to invade a sovereign country. But it certainly won't end there. Iraq will be left in ruins. It will take many years after coaition forces leave to restore any order or true democracy, if that will ever exist.

My comments appear to have struck a nerve here. Why, I cannot understand. I'm simply stating the obvious, which is reported quite widely around the world in all respectable media outlets with journalists who live in Iraq. Obviously, these reports aren't reaching the US. I've done a lot of research on Iraq over the years, partly due to my job, but mostly out of interest. However, I am no expert on the situation as a foreign correspondent who lives there might be. What I can do is plough thorough the nonsense, media speak and lies to come up with a sensible or likely scenario. And yes, I actually do know a couple of reporters who have covered Iraq in Baghdad.

Death squads are a reality. They are infiltrated by Coalition trained Iraqi forces. Its not the fault of the Coalition this is the case, but they certaily know about it. The Pentagon is well aware of what happens to its weapons. Any suggestion otherwise is insulting to the most powerful military organisation in the world.

Iraq's government doesn't want Coalition forces to leave, but Iraq's people do. This whole notion that they welcomed coalition forces with open arms was a massive media lie. A PR stunt by the orchestrators of war to show Westerns how successful the occupation was. I have interviewed several Australian forces who served in Iraq. They are very guarded about anything to do with Iraq, but in a round a bout way they say Iraqis have lost patience with the occupation forces. This isn't to say they are all trying to kill occupation forces. Unfortunately we have a situation where the Iraqi Government clearly is out of tune with the people.

Al Queda may well be in Iraq in some irrelevant form. But it is clearly not this massive terrorism force causing all the killings as the US Government continues to lie. I am not going to waste any more time disporving a lie, just do your research.

Rather off topic, but... As for the ridiuclous use of the holocaust to prove might is right. Do I really need to resond to this. Go any ask any Jewish person whether they believe the German's were right to use their military to murder millions. Can anyone please show me evidence that Iran or Syria support any more terrorism movements around the world than the US Government?

Message Edited... Persephone: Please use the Offtopic Tags so that the Thread maintains the same subject matter and does not develop into another Topic.

Post War Iraq

Tortdog:

I think arvhic is referring to this case:

https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290186,00.html

This is plain sickening and disgusting and proves that the life of an Iraqi in the eyes of the US military is worth nothing. I am not surprised, recently the US soldiers who took "turns" to rape an Iraqi teen girl, shot her to death, pour kerosene over her body and burn her AND kill her whole family as well (including a 5 years old little girl), were sentenced to 110, 90 and 100 years in prison, what a joke!

They should have received the DEATH PENALTY for the kind of crime they committed, they should have laid down on a floor and burn to death...oh yes...not just a shot on their head, but a painful death just as they put through this poor young girl, I can barely imagine the fear and pain her family and her went through because of these bastards! But once again the life of an Iraqi is worthless. If this would have happened to an US citizen family, Americans will SCREAM for Death Penalty. Sick of hypocrisy and double standards!

Post War Iraq - Page 123

I think this is the problem of a military court. The jury ARE peers. They are coloured through their own experiences in the military. Therefore, by nature, justice will be different to that for general citizens. This is not fair and it is not justice.

I agree that cases in the theatre of war must consider a different set of factors as a normal case. But the case LDS mentions below, which I refer to, clearly sets out the facts that this was a premeditated murder. It if is murder it is murder. Why should justice be any different for someone wearing a US uniform with a machine gun than an ordinary citizen?

Why do you believe al Queda? They are a bunch of fanaticists desperate to scare Americans. I can't believe anyone would take half of what they say seriously. Sure the authorities have to act on every potential threat, but ordinary citizens can surely use a bit of common sense. In the scheme of things, Al Queda are so glorified and hyped up by the Western media they often don't have to make outlandish statements to scare people. The US Government's track record of lying speaks for itself. Why would I believe any of them? I don't need evidence to discredit the US Government, they do a good enough job of this on a daily basis.

Tell me why I should trust the Iraqi Government? Furthermore, why would Iran even care if Al Queda was in Iraq. Are you going to tell me Iran sponsors this group? Or is that another one of Bush's pearls of wisdom which the rest of the world has caught onto? And why do you think is Iran an enemy of the US, and vice versa? I recommend you study the history between these two countries and you might begin to understand the current situation.

Rather off topic, but... I think this whole notion that everything the US does is good while everything states in the Middle East do is evil is extremely childish and naieve. It certainly adds nothing to this debate.

Message Edited... Persephone: Please learn how to use the Quote / Offtopic Tags. Check your spelling. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Post War Iraq Politics Business Civil & History - Page 123

LDS:

According to the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice the convening authority, usually a high ranking command officer chooses whether the death penalty will be sought prior to the trials commencement. It seems to me that the jury was displeased with the decision or they would not have given such long prison terms, to guarantee that these men never walked free again.

I disagree wholeheartedly that the US military views an Iraqi life as worth nothing. I challenge you to honesty substantiate that claim. It is simply ludicrous. Men and women from all over the United States leave their families and loved ones behind to go to Iraq and fight for the Iraqi peoples freedom. To date there have been something like a million US soldiers in Iraq, many having been there a couple of times. Obviously there will be some of them that are dirt bags and take advantage of helpless people, they do not represent what the rest of the US military is about. The fact that there have been relatively few of these instances is a testament to the honor and dignity of the vast majority of those serving over there.

Arvhic:

I would suggest that you interview more soldiers. I personally know many soldiers and sailors that have served in Iraq and not one of them has said that the people were anything but grateful for their presence. The conditions of most of their lives was absolutely deplorable before coalition forces showed up. I am not saying that they are much better now, but I believe that they are getting better.

With all of this said I will reiterate that I would like to see coalition forces leave Iraq. This should not be our war anymore, it should be the Iraqi's war, if they want it. We need to teach these people how to fight off the very real presence that Al-Quaeda, Iran, and Syria have and we need to leave.

Rather off topic, but... Arvhic, I don't believe anyone here has any allusions to the idea the everything that the U.S. does smells like roses. From your posts I can tell you definitely do not. However, I believe that countries like Iran and Syria would like to do honest harm to the U.S., and I certainly do not think we should sit idly by while they pay others to do it for them. The histories of these countries with the U.S. is troubling with faults on both sides. In an ideal world we could say, "let's just be forget about everything in the past and be friends now." However this is not an ideal world, and the problem goes deeper than just politics, and resources.