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Mormon Calling And Election Made Sure - Page 8

A couple of points I would like to discuss concerning Call and Election Made Sure and "more sure word of prophecy". It seems like some people use these terms as the same but I am not sure if they should be.

1. You can make your Call and Election Made Sure without having the "sure word of prophecy" meaning, literally receiving a visitation from the Lord.

2. You can make your Call and Election Made sure AND have the "more sure word of prophecy" as well.

Sure Election Calling Mormon

You are correct. Many of the terms associated with Calling and Election made sure are used interchangeably, but should not be. (Much like sin and transgression are used interchangeably but should not be because of their major differences.) These terms refer to a particular point or specific aspect of an event or blessing.

Here is another instance of using one term incorrectly. The visitation of Christ is very different from the "more sure word of prophecy". For example, Joseph Smith was visited by Jesus Christ on several occasions but did not have the more sure word of prophecy until he had received the Second Comforter.

I think this will explain:
- Being visited by Christ is one thing, receiving the constant companionship of Christ is another. The constant companionship of Christ is called the Second Comforter just as the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is called the first Comforter.
- The testimony of Christ via the Holy Ghost is the spirit of prophecy and when listened to makes us prophets. So anyone who has the testimony of Jesus Christ by personal revelation has experienced the spirit of prophecy and they are prophets.
- The more sure knowledge of Jesus Christ by receiving the Second Comforter or companionship of Christ is the more sure word of Prophecy. Do you see how the testimony of Christ is the beginning of prophecy and the knowledge of Christ is the more sure word of prophecy?

Calling and Election may happen at any time. At the same time for some, or sometime shortly thereafter for most, they will receive the Second Comforter and become special witnesses of Christ. The more sure word of prophecy is received when the Second Comforter is received, but does not refer to the Second Comforter, but to the increased evidence of their prophetic spirit or testimony of Christ.

Yes, a person can and often does receive their C&E made sure before having a personal visit from Christ.

Mormon Calling And Election Made Sure Studies Doctrine Mormon

There is one point here that I find needs to be challenged. It is the same point that I often put forward to Nighthawk when he used to bring up Plural Marriage being brought back in the Thread (In that day...), and that is that we follow authority first and then govern ourselves.

For instance: We must be baptized, the Lord makes it quite clear that we must be baptized by one having the authority to do so, after that then we must gain the Holy Ghost by similar means. These are both recorded regardless to whether we feel our sins are forgiven or if we feel the Spirit touch us upon hearing "Receive the Holy Ghost".

In both instances there are paths that have to be taken for that to be accomplished, we cannot just say to ourselves we will baptized ourselves. We cannot, because we have not been authorized. We are not in the days of Alma, nor Joseph... we have a Church set up for these things to prepare the gate. Now, what is my point... if a Member came to me and said... "I received the priesthood from 'x' person", but it was without an interview or 'blessing' of the Church then I would be apprehensive about whether they did actually received the priesthood. In fact, the Church follows D&C well in keeping records... and if a man cannot show by record where he has the priesthood neither are their witnesses who can vouch for it then the whole ordinance has to be performed again. In like manner... the Second Anointing, as I understand it will have to be recorded in like manner regardless to whether the person had the special confirmation of the Holy Spirit of Promise at the time.

These things are to be done... when the person has shown themselves worthy, at a special place and time, by one having authority, and recorded, regardless of if that recording is for public viewing or not.

Page 8 Sure Election Calling Mormon

So, with all that in mind, let's look at the specific doctrine and examples given by President Marion G. Romney of specific moments in which people made their Calling and Election sure: (These are taken from the talk: "The Light of Christ" by Marion G. Romney, Ensign, May 1977, 43 as presented in the April 1977 General Conference.)

He then gives multiple examples of people receiving their promise and lists the response to Enos's prayer alone while hunting (Enos 1:5 & 27), Alma who received it by personal revelation from the "voice of the lord" (Mosiah 26:14-20), The Twelve Nephite deciples (3 Ne. 28:1-3) and Moroni's comforting assurance while in solitude (Ether 12:37).

And now my favorite as more detail is provided which can be more easily understood, Romney says,

Thank you Kimball! And this was while he was alone with no witnesses and only became known to the church after either Kimball told them or through his journal. He was alone, not in the temple or by the hand of any leaders. In fact, it was received when "words came to his mind" which were testified by 'the spirit said to me" which is the "Voice of the Lord" which cannot lie. This is called the "Holy Spirit of Promise".

In fact, because of the foibles of fallible men, if an apostle who didn't know anything about the person were to give the symbolic ordinance and it were NOT sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then that outward ordinance would have no effect and would not be honored by God in this life or the next. And that person would not have the gifts and promises given to all who have truly received their Calling and Election made sure by God.

Romney gives 2 other examples, on of Joseph Smith as recorded in D&C 132:49 received by personal revelation through the spirit and the other Paul as recorded in 2 Tim. 4:6-8. (Not giving any detail as to how it was received.)

President Romney provided these examples of people receiving their calling and election made sure in 1977 during General Conference. By doing so, and encouraging us to receive these blessings he gave his witness that this is how it is received today.

President Romney was in authority while the temples were active, the priesthood authority was on the earth and the church was restored. He was acting as a President of the Church and speaking in General Conference. He gave these specific examples of people receiving their calling and election made sure via the Holy Spirit of Promise through personal revelation, we must accept that he was telling us how we can expect to receive this promise and recognize it. This is not IMO, this is in President Romney's opinion"¦ Or is it scripture"¦ when stated over the pulpit in General Conference?

Here is a secret, when Heber C. Kimball was sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise as recorded above and taught by President Romney and myself, he met the criteria spelled out in D&C 76:51-53 and so received with it all the blessings that come with that promise which are spelled out in D&C 76:54-70 including the sealing power. And no one was around to administer it to him or record it for the church except himself. But the Spirit gave the promise and God honors it and it is written in the heavens where the LDS Church cannot change them. And regardless of what any earthly authority said, even in the ranks of the priesthood, God's promise stands for God cannot lie and no man can make God a liar by declaring otherwise.

Just as God may not accept an ordinances performed by the church, the LDS church may also not accept an ordinances performed directly by God, but the Church of the First Born will as it is recorded in Heaven in perfect and accurate records known as "The book of Life".

Sure Election Calling Mormon

Amonhi

The Church of the Firstborn as you describe it, and calling and election made sure in the context as you are describing it, are in my opinion false concepts. I believe in both of them, but I do not accept your interpretation of them.

I believe the the Church of the first Born is a continuation (or more specifically the culmination) of the Church that is here on Earth as the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a fulfillment of the law of Moses (A law which many Prophets in the Old testament and Book of Mormon followed).

If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is not a step to the higher Church, then why do you even use the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon to support your view? These scriptures are primarily documents of the earthly manifestation of the Church of the First Born from a prophet who organized the church (Joseph Smith). If they are not, then it is useless to use these to support the position that the Church of the First Born if is a completely separate entity.

From the LDS Doctrine and Covenants

According to this it seems that there has to be an order with which one enters the Church of the First born and receives their calling and election made sure, and that very clearly involves the essential ordinance of baptism, obedience to commandments and repentance and receiving the Holy Ghost.

And I believe it a dangerous doctrine to believe that once we have our calling and election made sure that we can let down our guard pertaining to sin.

If we continue in unrepentant sin, regardless of our personal feelings of an assurance of eternal life, we put our spirits in great danger. If we are a sinful person(who feels he does not need the "lower" law of repentance), and also feel that our calling and election is made sure, then I think their is a disconnect there that Satan can still manipulate.

The Book of Mormon is full of examples of Prophets who cried for forgiveness for their perceived weaknesses. If they still did this after receiving so many witnesses of Christ, why should we feel that we have gone beyond the point of the redemption of Christ?

Edited: dbackers on 6th Oct, 2008 - 12:34am

Mormon Calling And Election Made Sure

Everything becomes new, once we have received our calling and election made sure. New doctrine as in you must suffer for your own sins via the buffetings of Satan and being destroyed in the flesh. Not enjoyable I assure you. Faith in Christ becomes knowledge of Christ. Repentance becomes eternal progression, the atonement is fulfilled and you are redeemed. The endowment is fulfilled, the sealing is fulfilled, your line of authority changes. Men and Women become priests and Priestesses with the full extent of the priesthood of God and begin focusing on being Gods. Missionaries are sent out from the church of the First Born to teach and bring as many as will to this Higher Church. Everything becomes new.

It is even called by a diffrent name because every member of the church of the First Born are First Born sons and daughters of God and joint heirs with Christ according to the promise of exaltation. But this is not so with the "Latter-day Saints" who are not necessarily promised exaltation.

Do you question my previous post regarding how it happens to the general membership or do you agree?

That is exactly waht it is, it is a "step up" from the world. The LDS Church is a mediator between the World and the Church of the First Born. Without the LDS church or lower laws and preparatory gospel we would not be able to "Step Up" to the higher laws and exaltation.

As such, the scriptures have both the lower law and the higher law jumbled together. This has caused much confusion as some religions like the Born Again have doctrines associated with the Church of the FirstBorn and those who have indeed already been saved and promised exaltation. Other churches like the baptists focus on the lower laws of the preparatory gospel. The LDS church takes all of these doctrines and lines them up saying, start with the preparatory gospel and progress to your promise of exaltation, then it mentions very little about the Church of the First Born accept that it exists. It doesn't say anything about it really. We can learn more from comentary than we can the scriptures. The reason is because the law becomes written on our hearts and not in books or on stone.

A discussion regarding the relationship between the Church of the FB and the LDS Church cannot be complete without considering the purpose of the lower/LDS Church and the ordinances it provides.

Here is the interesting part. Baptism alone cannot save us, even if done by authority. In fact, until the Spirit ratifies it, no ordinance performed correctly and with authority has any validity to God, but it does to the church. In fact, the LDS church does not record whether the spirit is present at all. As far as the records of the church, they don't care, it is recorded anyway as being completed. This is the principle by which baptisms for the dead are done. We do it regardless with the hope that the dead will accept it and that God will accept it. This is the same even when a sealer performs a sealing. It must be ratified by the Holy Ghost or it is not accepted.

Here is the law of the "New and Everlasting Covenant" of which a testimony is the first ordinance and all ordinances must comply:

The Church of Jesus Christ keeps all records of ordinances regardless of whether or not the spirit ratifies them. So, the church records all ordinances performed via it's protocol regardless of whether they are valid or not. A person can be baptized on the records of the church and yet God has not yet accepted it. Or a person could receive the Holy Ghost by the records of the church, but the spirit does not ratify it and God does not recognize the ordinance even though the church does.

We tend to think doing these actions by authority has some impact on our eternal status with God. This makes us like unto the Children of Israel who thought that sacrificing animals in a certain place and time, by the right authority of the Levitical or Aaronic Priesthood associated with the Law of Moses would save the soul. They thought that by "living the law" of Moses they would be saved or cleaned from their sins. The truth is that the animal sacrifices did nothing even if performed by authorized Levites, except they pointed the people to the living truth as symbols and types of that living truth. They were symbols that pointed to the truth to hopefully bring about an internal change. When people looked at the symbols and not the truth behind them, these symbols were called "dead works". Dead works because doing them did not bring life. At times, the Nephites did understand this:

This is reiterated multiple times in the Book of Mormon and clarified in the D&C.

Remember that the Aaronic Priesthood is the Priesthood of the Lower Law also known as the Law of Moses. It's intent is to prepare people for the Higher Law. It was given to the Children of Israel between the time of Moses and Christ. It included the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ EXCEPT for the gift of the Holy Ghost. It includes the authority of the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood to perform the ordinances associated with this Lower Law.

Notice that 'the Lord in his wrath caused to continue" among the ancients. Well, surprise surprise, 'the Lord in his wrath" has caused it again to continue in this the fulness of times. This is the Lower Law, the Aaronic priesthood and all it's ordinances and all it's authority. The same priesthood that the Levites performed the various sacrifices which the children of Israel in general thought brought salvation. And we again think that these symbols bring salvation. They don't, even if performed by the Aaronic Priesthood authority. They are all dead works unless we see the life that they point to, and God even admits it.

"You cannot enter in at the straight gate by the Law of Moses even with all the authority of Levitical or Aaronic Priesthood backing it. To think so is to rely on dead works. And, the Lord says, "it is because of your dead works that I have caused "¦ this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old." In the days of old this was done in the Lord's wrath, why should we think it is not in his wrath today? (All things are restored in The Fulness of Times, even the dead works of old.)

In contrast, the Lord gave "living water" or 'the bread of life" which were words which brought life. They brought life because he was teaching and giving knowledge. And because we are saved no sooner than we can gain knowledge, his words often brought people closer to life than the dead works of the Aaronic Priesthood which they thought provided life.

The living water is something I am certain many reading this have felt. It is the feeling of the spirit drinking pure water or eating pure bread. It is a wonderful feeling, especially after being starved for so long.

Now, here is the doctrine of the Higher Law in relation to all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations:

This is the doctrine by which all the Promises of God are received. In the case of calling and Election made sure, that promise is of eternal life and exaltation. And how does that promise come?

By the Holy Spirit of Promise which was named so because it specifically refers to the Spirit of God that brings the promise of exaltation which is when a person receives their calling and election made sure. The BIG question is whether the spirit can give such a witness without the authority of the LDS Church, (which was built up because of dead works), backing it.

Notice first off that this is a spirit we are talking about and not a man in authority. So, when God, who cannot lie, gives his promise that a person will be exalted, (or receive any blessing), then that promise will be fulfilled. Though heaven and earth, (or even the LDS Church), will pass away, still the promise of God will be upheld, or God will cease to be God. So the promise of God by personal revelation is then the life behind the symbols and is the gate by which we must enter all covenants or they will be of no effect. To know God is to know God cannot lie, among other things. (Not to believe God cannot lie, but to know it.)

And how does this Holy Spirit of Promise witness to people? It comes as the voice of God directly through the Holy Ghost or the Voice of God being the Holy Ghost indirectly through a servant of God. Speaking of simple missionaries, the Lord said:

Although he is speaking of missionaries, this truth can be universally applied to anyone who speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost. Which means a missionary inspired to say so, could pronounce someone's calling and election made sure. I have heard of Bishops pronouncing such blessings. I have personally heard sealers pronounce such blessings. I have heard Elders pronounce such blessings. And any time the spirit gives it's witness and promise, God has sanctioned it and it will be done.

to be continued....

Edited: Amonhi on 6th Oct, 2008 - 5:41am

Mormon Calling Election Sure - Page 8

Remember the words of life I spoke of before? Did you see that what is spoken when moved upon by the Holy Ghost in 'the power of God unto salvation"? That is more "powerful" than the dead works of the Aaronic Priesthood and is the only power that can bring eternal life and exaltation. It is 'the voice of the Lord"! and seal of God.

So, this is why the Lord said,

Now, the Lord does not honor promises made without the spirit, because it is NOT God's voice. So, any promise made by any prophet or any authority including an apostle or president of the church in the temple that is NOT sealed by 'the Holy Spirit of Promise" will NOT be honored by God. We cannot put God into contracts that he does not agree with. (But anyone who's promise is sealed by the Holy Ghost will be honored by God.) This also goes for ordainances.

The Lord says, "by my own voice" meaning the Holy Ghost and the words of God directly to you via personal revelation. So, whether by his own voice or the voice of his servants, it is the same because it is sealed by the Holy Ghost and thus given by Holy Spirit of Promise which God cannot break.

That is correct... There is an order, and the spirit must seal each step on you, beginning with the testimony of Jesus Christ making you a prophet. And every step between that point and being sealed is required. But, we miss understand the "Gate by which you should enter".

Yes, Baptism is the symbol which points to the gate, and because of this, you could say that baptism IS the gate. However, to be specific, Baptism is the symbol which must be performed correctly to point to the true living gate by which life comes. So only authorized and trained Aaronic Priesthood holders can perform the ordinance to ensure the symbol is performed correctly. If it is not performed correctly, then it does not point to the true gate. Using authority we ensure the ordinances are true symbols and have been given properly before recording them on the records of the church. It does not mean that the person performing the ordinance is worthy and sometimes they are not. And if a Priest performed a baptism and later confessed to not having the spirit because he had been sleeping with his girl friend, (And when the spirit withdraws, amen to the priesthood and authority of that man.- D&C 121: 37), that does not mean they need to redo the baptism. But if the man didn't have the spirit, then he didn't have authority or priesthood, why doesn't the ordinance need to be done again? Because the symbol was performed correctly already and so points to life but does not provide life in itself. And God will accept it based on the receivers readiness and visit them with the spirit accordingly.

Mormon Calling Election Sure Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 8

Are you saying those that have had their calling and election made sure, no longer have need of Jesus Christ as a redeemer?

That they do not need Jesus Christ to be their advocate with the Father at the Last Day?

Or by entering the Church of the First Born, one does not have need of Faith, Baptism, Repentance or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?