Close Topic Options

Zion - Page 2

Maybe in the area where you live, I see it every Sunday in Church.

Excellent quote Farseer! Is interesting that the members at that time dealt with the same mentality about what prosperity is all about, I am seeing in the Church very often people refering as 'succesful' somebody who is rich in temporal things but you never mention somebody refering as 'succesful' someone who have a good life, with his/her family in the Gospel trying to strive to live the Commandments as the best they can.

Zion

Just one of the many reasons we should be retaining the knowledge of "living off the land" -- how to grow our own food, and be able to store that food for future use; how to raise livestock and be able to store that as well; to eat meat sparingly -- who knows when we will be cut off from any kind of supply and have to grow our own?; to sew and repair clothing; to knit warm caps and scarves and even to spin our own yarn from wool and flax; how to process grain and bake bread in a makeshift oven over a wood fire.... These are lost arts in most of the so-called "civilized" world today. One day, maybe very soon, we'll need this knowledge just to survive.

I know I've sort of drifted off topic, but have I really? A Zion people will be self-sufficient, and relying not on the world for their support.

In my opinion.
Roz

Edited: FarSeer on 12th Jun, 2004 - 8:50pm

Zion Studies Doctrine Mormon

Zion, can we establish it before He comes?

First, let me say that my understanding is that the City of Zion and her stakes will be established before Christ comes.

So, the question is who will be among those that establish Zion.

My understanding is that Zion can only be established by the sanctified, in other words, the literal Latter-day Saints, not the latter-day saints (in name only.) A sanctified person is a holy person. A saint is a holy person. Saint = sanctified person. The terms are synonymous.

The sanctified seek to establish Zion and her stakes, literally, not just This "literal Zion" as opposed to "Zion in name only" concept reminds me of Doctrine and Covenants 119, the revelation of the law of tithing. In verse 6, the Lord tells what the blessings of living the law of tithing really are:

Page 2 Zion

I just thought that I would add my two cents in here.

It is important to distinguish between what present day Latter Day Saints mean by "Zion" and the "redeeming of Zion" and what that concept meant to the saints of the early church. To those who are unfamiliar with the early history of the church, this was an extremely important concept that many of us don't understand at all anymore.

Zion, to the early members of the church, was the area in Missouri surrounding Independence including Adam-Ondi-Ahman, DeWitt, Far West, etc. When the Saints were persecuted and being killed and driven out of Missouri by force, the Prophet got a group of about 200 men together who were known as Zion's Camp. They were an armed group of men whose sole purpose was to march to Missouri and protect the Saints and "redeem Zion". They didn't get much help from the faithful members of the church as the prophet wanted 500-1000 men for the journey and money to help with the food and expenses the men would need. As Zion's Camp was entering Missouri, after it had been plagued with troubles of its own including infighting among a few members who were unwilling to follow Joseph's counsel, Joseph received a revelation while at Fishing River (D&C 105) explaining why Zion would not be redeemed at that time.

Now, I just wanted to clarify that because I have come across people who don't know what this means. They think it refers to Enoch and that Salt Lake will be translated or some such nonsense. Personally, I don't think the redemption of Zion will come until the second coming, because just like the literal law of consecration, and other sacred principles, we aren't faithful enough to live the concepts. The "restoration of Zion and her stakes" while taken from this original meaning has come to have an all-together different meaning among Saints, often having more to do with the actual prosperity and faithfulness of the church and its members.

Offtopic but, One very important and interesting thing that came from Zion's Camp is that shortly thereafter, the Prophet organized the first Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the majority of the twelve came from the most faithful of the Zion's Camp members.

Edited: BigMac on 17th Jun, 2004 - 2:07pm

Zion

BigMac, the revelation you mentioned, D&C 105, does state "a little season." It also states:

Isn't everything "a little season" to the Lord? Even "many days" would still be a little season to the Lord. The Lord knew of our self-imposed limitations. He knew it would be a long time before His people sanctified themselves and redeemed Zion. Yet, it doesn't have to be a long time. We can do it now.

The revelation you mentioned contains great prophecies, such as:

The Lord's timetable is determined, to a large extent, by us. If we sanctify ourselves and seek to establish Zion, and call upon the Lord in the prayer of faith, He will bestow the very power needed to redeem the land of Zion, build the Holy City and strengthen her stakes.

On another note, and this is to anyone who can answer, I've heard many Latter-day Saints express the belief that the City of Zion will be established after the Lord comes, not before. I have found no scriptural evidence for this. Everything I've come across indicates that the New Jerusalem must be built before the Lord comes. I assume that the belief comes from some scriptural passage(s.) Where are they located?

Zion

Buggeyes, you mentioned D&c 105:37 and the "many days" spoken of in that verse. If you take the verses surrounding that verse,

33 Verily I say unto you, it is expedient in me that the first elders of my church should receive their endowment from on high in my house, which I have commanded to be built unto my name in the land of Kirtland.
34 And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption.
35 There has been a day of calling, but the time has come for a day of choosing; and let those be chosen that are worthy.
36 And it shall be manifest unto my servant, by the voice of the Spirit, those that are chosen; and they shall be sanctified;
37 And inasmuch as they follow the counsel which they receive, they shall have power after many days to accomplish all things pertaining to Zion.
38 And again I say unto you, sue for peace, not only to the people that have smitten you, but also to all people;
39 And lift up an ensign of peace, and make a proclamation of peace unto the ends of the earth;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 105:33 - 39)

I think it becomes clear that the Lord is speaking about the formation of what I mentioned in the OT section of the last post, and that is that most of the members of the Quorum of the 12 (and all of the First Quorum of the Seventy, which I didn't mention) were taken from the faithful who served in Zion's Camp. The Lord was also commanding those in Zion's Camp not to go to War over the lands in Missouri which many in Zion's Camp and many in the church wanted Zion's camp to do.

I would agree that to the Lord, everything is probably a "little season". I don't however think that we can go and redeem Zion at the present time. One reason is that many groups opposed to the church know of what we believe about Missouri. If the church started buying land in large chunks it is possible that we might see the kind of opposition that was seen in the early days of the church raise its head. I don't believe that is something the church wants or needs now, especially considering that there is no reason for it. There will be plenty of time to redeem Zion when the time is deemed necessary by the Lord.

The reason I say there is no reason for redeeming Zion now is that in the early days of the church, one of the reasons that the idea of Zion was so popular among members of the church is that they wanted a central gathering place where they could practice their religion without fear of reprisal from their neighbors. This was also important to the leadership of the church since we were not a strong unit. The years have changed all that. Salt Lake City gave the saints a place to gather and build the church until it was strong enough to build the church worldwide. No longer do the Presidency of the Church ask members from around the world to move to America to strengthen the Church, as they did in the early days of the church, especially to the Saints of the British Isles. Today we are asked to build "Zion" locally, while also spreading the message of Zion worldwide. Our Stakes, which is why we the church speaks so much about the concept of building the "Stakes of Zion", perform the duty of protecting, instructing and comforting its members. They, and our local Temples, are our central gathering place, not Salt Lake or Missouri or wherever. Because of this, and because of the great influence the church puts on the missionary program, it has become clear, at least to me, that Zion is the earth. When we gather new members to the flock, and see more temples dot the earth, we are gathering and building Zion.

It's is my personal belief that we will not see the literal restoration of Zion until after the Lord's return, simply because the adversary would do anything and everything within its power to make sure it didn't happen.

Zion - Page 2

Some scriptures come to mind: