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Philosophies Of Men, Mingled With Scripture

As Latter Day Saints, we view our church as the only true church. We concede that other churches teach much that is true and good, but their doctrine is mingled with the philosophies of men. A question to ponder is, do we as LDS teach the doctrine of man as well, mingled with scripture. I think at times we do. I will cite a few examples I have noticed. maybe some of you can add others, or disagree with some of mine.

Sabbath Day Observance---This is a simple commandment from God. Set aside the sabbath as a day to leave the cares of the world behind and worship God. In an attempt to do this, we have long lists of do's and don'ts, given to us at times from prohets and at other times from well meaning members. But how much of this is what the Lord intended and how much is the philosophy of men.

For example, when i was a child in the 1960's it was taught from the pulpit that to correctly obey the Sabbath, we should not go home from church and have Mom slave away in the kitchen preparing a big meal, it should be a day of rest for her. So, many LDS members went out to eat on Sunday. It was very common and was actually encouraged. Nobody back then considered going to a restaurant to be in violation of the Sabbath. Somewhere down the line, somebody must have said this was encouraging business to stay open and it gradually caught on where today, good LDS members would not think of going out to dinner on Sunday. But this was not the original idea behind sabbath day observance. So are we adding the philosophies of men in this instance? Likewise, when my Dad was a child in the 1920's, one favorite sabbath day activity was going to the river for a picnic. Multi LDS families would meet there for a good time. Try that today, it would not fly.

Word of Wisdom-- this commandment prohibits the use of strong drinks, tobaco, tea and coffee. As people start analyzing the commandment, some start adding other things as well...caffeinated soft drinks, chocolate, red meat etc. Again, philosophies of men?

Fast Sunday----the correct instruction on the fast is to obstain from food and drink for two meals. i remember back in the late 1970's, it was a common belief that the fast included all physical appetites, not just food and drink. So, married members were not allowed to be intimate with each other for 24 hours. Fortunately, this belief seems to have faded away.

I had thought of other examples but don't recall them now. Any thoughts?

Scripture Mingled Men Philosophies

I agree that as members we do sometimes mingle philosophies of men in our beliefs. I don't necessarily agree with all of Gaucho's examples, but his point is a valid one in my mind.

I agree some of our Sabbath Day worship has become pharisaical (sp) in nature. However, I think we shouldn't be going out to a restaurant to eat. Yet, the list of do's and don'ts, in my opinion, go way overboard. Simply put, it is a day of rest and worship. Why must we make it so complicated.

As far as the Word of Wisdom, I think the opposite is true. I think we need to read the scripture and apply it to the knowledge we have today. So, to me, we should limit certain substances even if they are not specifically prohibited because we understand the Law's intent. It becomes the philosophies of men, if we begin to say these things we choose for ourselves are necessary for others or they are not properly obeying.

I think we should strive to do more than just the bare minimums. However, when doing so, we need to be careful that we don't rewrite the scriptures or begin to think that our method of observance is more important that the gospel is itself.

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This is one reason that personal revelation is so important -- did that instruction come from the prophet? Or from your EQ president? Is it in the scriptures? We can't just blindly follow what we hear from friends and/or local leaders.

In fact, just yesterday from the pulpit the bishop in my sister's ward read a letter from the First Presidency. It stated, in essence, that we should check out what we hear through the grapevine to make sure it actually comes from official church publications or sources, and not from somebody's email. Verify your sources.

Are we not to try the very angels who appear to us?

IMO
Roz

Scripture Mingled Men Philosophies

The letter was read in our Sacrament meeting a week or two ago. That is what got me thinking on these lines.

Scripture Mingled Men Philosophies

Good thread Gaucho - keep it up. I believe that this is exactly what we are trying to ascertain within this board, at least it is what I think I want to accomplish - to distinguish Truth from Error, Opinion, etc. Let us keep in mind something though... remember, there are certain things for which you must qualify, this is the standard, but then there is also the 'unwritten' stuff that you do not necessarily have to do, but for which you can be blessed. In other words, it all depends on what we teach. For instance if we say we must not drink Coke (just for example) then we must understand that it can only apply as an individual decision even if Pres. Kimball said we shouldn't, simply because it is not part of the standard set by the Church. I think it is when we try to impose or teach our personal standards on or to others that we er.

Philosophies Of Men, Mingled With Scripture

I think that in some things we mix the policies of the church with the policies of men, however the key thing to me that is mentioned in this thread is the idea that members sometimes take their own personal beliefs and try to impose them on others. Some of the guidelines of the church are just those, guidelines. They aren't written in stone and the leaders of the church leave them up to us to decide how we are to live them.

I know the way I was raised is that on the Sabbath we ate leftovers and it has still been that way with me as a grown man. As a kid, my mother would make a large meal on Saturday, and then on Sunday we would have the leftovers from Saturday's meal for Sunday dinner. She really loved it because it allowed her to rest on Sunday. I still do that as a grownup simply because it just makes sense. I'd even do it if I wasn't going to church. It just makes Sundays more relaxing. We still have family get togethers and events on Sundays though because we can't think of a better way to celebrate the Sabbath than to be with our family. Usually the television is off until after 6pm, and most Sundays it is off altogether, unless something extra special is on. If I do watch tv it usually is a favorite dvd. And I have Church music in the mornings before church to help set the mood. That is normally how my Sundays go...I'm not saying that is how everyone else should do it, but that is what I do.

The word of wisdom thing isn't appropriate for me because even if I wanted to, for health reasons, I'm not supposed to drink caffeine. Neither is fast sunday, because I'm on medications that require me to eat food with the medicines, so I can never observe fast sundays like I'm supposed to.

Regardless, I get upset when I find someone telling me how I should live the gospel, unless it is my bishop or stake president, or unless it comes from Salt Lake.

Philosophies Men Mingled Scripture

I read this thread after being involved in another thread on this topic. I am moving my few thoughts to this thread as it is where they belong.

After reading this thread, I think that we should consider that everything anyone tells us is the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Even what we hear from the pulpit, in the ensign, in general conference, from the prophet, the scriptures, and even the church standards, protocols and doctrines. This is hard to see because there is so much truth in the church. However, even the scriptures were written by men who were fallible. They tried to express the truths they found, but they were still limited by there own changing understanding of truth.

Only the Holy Ghost can tell us all things which are true. It is the only 100% reliable source of truth. It's witness and only it's witness is scripture. Even the scriptures are not entirely scripture. For example, the "Book of Mormon" was proclaimed "the most correct book", NOT "a correct book". This implies that at the time of the statement, it was the most correct of all other books, but still was not a perfect or completely correct book. And yet this "most correct book" is accepted as scripture. (Sounds like a 99% truth and 1% lies kind of thing to me.) Also, we are very aware that the bible has many incorrect teachings due to mistranslation and human error. (Maybe an 90% truth and 10% lies.)

These 2 scriptures are stark reminders that even scripture is not always scripture. But what the Holy Ghost teaches us directly is ALWAYS pure scripture to us, no questions. And the Holy Ghost will not witness to us a truth we do not understand correctly, which would be a witness of a false teaching in the end. (Can you see why that is important/essential? Can you see how that applies to our lives?)

If we do not receive a witness, then we do not understand or have the truth. (Even if the truth was taught, if we do not understand it we do not have it. With out understanding, we do not "have" the truth. This is much like having a tool we can't find. If we can find it, and can't use it, owning it doesn't do us any good. So it is with the scriptures or prophets' teachings, if the truth is there, but we don't understand it, it is useless to us. Without that witness, we can be certain that we don't have the truth, even though we own the scriptures and are members of the "True Church".)

The rest of this is a short thread I wanted to repeat here so it would be in it's right place.

That is correct Josh. We hear the philosophies of men mingled with scripture everywhere. We call them "Opinions". We cannot avoid it. We hear them at school, from the news, in books, in church meetings and even in the scriptures, written by fallible men. The question is do we believe them?

The answer is "YES", we do. In fact we believe all things. Because as Joseph smith said,

This type of "Belief" or openness to consider is the key to understanding things which are beyond your current level of progression. Too often we toss things aside before the Holy Ghost can provide a witness because we cannot believe the possibility, or we already have our preconceived beliefs which we will not let go. When we read the scriptures, we eventually come across "mysterious passages". They are only mysterious because we do not understand them. (Was that an obvious statement or what?) We do not understand them because we have already rejected what they are trying to tell us. By dropping our preconceived notions, we will immediately see what it is saying, and the mystery will be revealed. Isaiah is great for practicing this. Again, this type of believing is a great key to comprehending beyond your current progression. Like Nitro to your progressionary speed. It is more commonly called "humility" or the ability to be taught.

On the other hand, what I described above is not so much believing, but being open to all possibilities. That is difficult to do when you already believe a thing. The reason to be open to all possibilities is because we want to know all things. Sometimes, two opposing things can be true at the same time. For example:

"We cannot be Gods."
"We can be Gods."

Both of these statements are true depending on which Kingdom or sphere of truth you are in.

Telestial people say, "I cannot become a God." And they are right, unless they change kingdoms and enter a new sphere of truth.
Terrestial people say, "I can become a God." And they are right.
Celestial people say, "I am an eternally progressing God." And they are right in their sphere of truth.

All of these are correct in their own sphere. A telestial person will never be a God. They must become a Celestial person, then they can be a God. When a telestial person becomes a Celestial person, the telestial person no longer exists. The natural man is put off, and the man is "born again" a new being.

You can see this concept when you look at the relationship with God associated with each kingdom.

Telestial - Servant to Master - Do not question, just obey, Theme is "fear God and tremble". (God is a tyrant and terrorist! They are right too. From their point of view God demands Obedience without question or He curses us in this life and threatens with eternal punishment.)
Terrestial - Son to Father - Obey, but question to understand, and learn to be like. Theme is "seek God, to be like God". (Begins with trying to be like Christ (God). The first Change of heart.)
Celestial - Friend to Friend - Challenge as equals, persuade or be persuaded, and disagree on occasion without fear. Theme is "be God, with God". (God is love.)

That last one seems far fetched, I know. But when you have the Promise of God that you will be exalted, (Your calling and Election made sure), you realize that God isn't an Indian giver and isn't dangling the promise like a carrot for your obedience. You have the promise and the ONLY way to loose the promise is to deny the Holy Ghost which is to assent to the death of Christ and shed innocent blood. That does not include disagreeing with God, in it's simplest and innocent form. I am referring to the relationship Nephi had with God when God gave him the Sealing power, or Moses who told God he wouldn't cooperate if God destroyed the Children of Israel.

Now, consider what I just said, in fact everything I or anyone says should be treated the same way. Whether it is printed by a good organization or spoken by a street bum, it is all the ideas of men mingled with scripture. I can even point out the scriptures that support what I said above, but it is still my beliefs mingled with scripture, and you should not believe them. Even the words we hear from the pulpit in general conference are ideas mingled with scripture. So what then is the solution? What are we to believe?

Only scripture! Pure scripture! What is Pure scripture? Only that which is testified to you by the Holy Ghost. It is scripture to you, it is the voice of the Lord to you, the word of the lord to you, and the power of God to your salvation. (D&C 68) Whether it comes directly from the mouth of God or the mouth of his servants, it is the same voice of the spirit you follow. It is that witness that is pure scripture to you, and that which you should follow.

Now can too people have different revelations that contradict and still be correct for themselves? Yes, even points of truth are subject to our current progression. If truth were seen as light, a bright truth would cause blindness to a darkened mind, like looking at the sun. So, we find truths that are a little brighter than the ones we already have. And by doing this, you may have a truth that is from a higher plane than my truth, and I would reject it because I am not ready for that truth. It is too bright for me. And if I tried to apply it, it would be devastating to me, because it would be applied by a darkened mind. (Like the Children of Israel trying to live the higher law. It didn't work they weren't ready for that must freedom.

We might be told different truths because we have different missions, circumstances, and of course different points of progression. A person cannot jump from the telestial kingdom to the celestial in one bound, (but they can run really quickly like king Lamoni), we must walk the same path Adam did through each kingdom. And in each kingdom we are given laws pertaining to that kingdom which help us to move to the next. For example, the Telestial has no law, the terrestial has the lower law, and the Celestial has the Higher law. To move from the telestial we must learn and begin to live the terrestial law. To move to the Celestial, we must learn and begin to live the Celestial law.

But if you tell the Terrestrial people what you learned about the celestial living, they will not believe it and they are right because it contradicts the truths they learned and try to live in their terrestrial sphere. (Unless they are open to believing all things, in which case they would let the idea have time to sit in their mind, and perhaps it will grow and they will begin to see, or perhaps it will wither and die. We choose the soil of our soul and whether it is plant able or rocky. The more our soul is nourishing of various ideas, they faster we grow, without fear of bad or false ideas which naturally wilt on their own, see Alma 32)

But the one sure thing is that the Holy Ghost will teach you everything you need to know appropriate for your current progression. It is the rock and the only source of pure scripture.

By the way, that's my "opinion".

Edited: Amonhi on 1st Aug, 2008 - 2:14am

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I do not respond much to these Threads because I prefer the openness and depth of the Threads we have in the Mature section, but I will touch on this point you made.

A man of the Twelve once told me that of all the things we may struggle to do in this life... the thing that we will struggle the most with is knowing what Heavenly Father wants us to do. It is a life long struggle. In getting Truth from the Holy Ghost there are two things that are vital which are sometimes confused by the individual.

1. Feelings
2. Worthiness to receive truth.

Both of themselves I have seen constantly interpreted and misinterpreted thus we end up with "Philosophies of Men, mingled with Scripture", but I digress on this Board with my thoughts.